T.O double with 2 suiter

[Flame]

Robson segal suggest doubling with many of the 2 suiters, if i understand right, they wont double with the lower 2 suiter, so after 1d opening , holding the majors they will not double (fear of hearing 2c) they mention that in italy it still right to double it.

Most ppl i know double only with 3 suiter. (atleast 3 in each suit)

I heard more then once in the forum something that begin with the words "same level" which i think is related to this.

Whats your approach ?

This approach influence many sequences which you might not thought about for example:

(1d) - p - (1s) P

(2d) - D

playing "normal" 3 suits double, this would be t.o with spades, playing r/s approach this is penalty holding clubs since with H+C i could have doubled.

on the other side

(1d) - P - (1s) p

(2c) D

is penalty for normal doublers but t.o with diamonds by R/S.

[inquiry]

I am probably not the best person to follow on this, but I do not double with two suiters. I play an odd version of RAPTOR which shows a major and minor, 2NT is lowest two unbid (or random two suiter if bidding had been 1H-P-2H-2NT), and micheals cue-bid. If partner will not play raptor or the strange version misho has me playing. So, I like my takeout doubles to be shape specific or GOSH.

 

I have played equal level conversion, and I think it will work ok if you can get on the same page with your partners. It is just that I never seem to be able to... and one reason is partner jumps way to high in my short suit too often. Maybe I just remember the bad hands.

 

Ben

[Flame]

I have played equal level conversion

Thanks Ben,

what exactly is this equal level conversion, does it mean a suit on the same level as the opening is not a gosh ? and upper level is gosh ?

[helene_t]

Hardy plays top-bottom cuebids and equal level conversion, that is:

dbl: could be two highest unbid suits

cue: highest and lowest

2NT: two lowest.

 

It's not clear to me what to do with a very strong hand and the middle unbid suit, though. Therefore I prefer not to play equal level conversion.

[PriorKnowledge]

in general, "equal level conversion" means that in the auction

(1H) X (p) 2C

(p) 2D

2D is equal level conversion, shows no extra values (dbl and bid own suit is usually strong), and showing 5 diam and 4 spades.

 

"equal level conversion" refers that both 2C and 2D are both 2-level bids. Since 2D did not raise the level, no extra strength is implied.

[inquiry]

I have played equal level conversion

Thanks Ben,

what exactly is this equal level conversion, does it mean a suit on the same level as the opening is not a gosh ? and upper level is gosh ?

Equal level conversion means that advancer (partner of the takeout doubler) can choose between the remaining two suits without changing levels. So for example, if the bidding had been...

 

(1S)-DBL-(Pass)-2D

Pass-2H

 

This is not equal level conversion. If advancer likes clubs better than hearts, he has to bid to the three level. So this would be GOSH.

 

How big is gosh is a matter of partnership style. Whatever you define as a maximum simple overcall, then Gosh is just better than that to unlimited I guess.

 

Ben

[Flame]

Thanks for all the answers, it helped me decide not to play play gosh only over 1 level opening.

[Cowology]

Equal level conversion means that advancer (partner of the takeout doubler) can choose between the remaining two suits without changing levels. So for example, if the bidding had been...

 

(1S)-DBL-(Pass)-2D

Pass-2H

 

This is not equal level conversion. If advancer likes clubs better than hearts, he has to bid to the three level. So this would be GOSH.

 

How big is gosh is a matter of partnership style. Whatever you define as a maximum simple overcall, then Gosh is just better than that to unlimited I guess.

 

Ben

This sounds interesting, but I do have 1 question. Given the sequence...

 

(1H)-DBL-(Pass)-2C

Pass-

 

Would the doubler then need to make a jump to 3D or 3S in order to show a hand with additional values? If so I'm not sure I like having to push the auction to 3S just to show 18 points and a solid S suit.

[Flame]

Equal level conversion means that advancer (partner of the takeout doubler) can choose between the remaining two suits without changing levels. So for example, if the bidding had been...

 

(1S)-DBL-(Pass)-2D

Pass-2H

 

This is not equal level conversion. If advancer likes clubs better than hearts, he has to bid to the three level. So this would be GOSH.

 

How big is gosh is a matter of partnership style. Whatever you define as a maximum simple overcall, then Gosh is just better than that to unlimited I guess.

 

Ben

This sounds interesting, but I do have 1 question. Given the sequence...

 

(1H)-DBL-(Pass)-2C

Pass-

 

Would the doubler then need to make a jump to 3D or 3S in order to show a hand with additional values? If so I'm not sure I like having to push the auction to 3S just to show 18 points and a solid S suit.

You can find good guidlines to when its gosh and when its not in robson segal book.

To your question, first they streach the overcall, especially the 2 level overcall, so in your example with a diamond suit and 18 hcp 2d is still the bid, and the need for gosh become rare. second if you have a diamond gosh, and you double and decided to double to show gosh, you already taken into consideration that partner might bid 2sp, which you will need to bid 3D, so if you were ready to bid 3d, then you will be ok with a jump to 3d incase partner bid 2c.

[Cowology]

You can find good guidlines to when its gosh and when its not in robson segal book.

To your question, first they streach the overcall, especially the 2 level overcall, so in your example with a diamond suit and 18 hcp 2d is still the bid, and the need for gosh become rare. second if you have a diamond gosh, and you double and decided to double to show gosh, you already taken into consideration that partner might bid 2sp, which you will need to bid 3D, so if you were ready to bid 3d, then you will be ok with a jump to 3d incase partner bid 2c.

Well that seems reasonable. And after having given my last post a little more thought (probably should of done that BEFORE posting lol), it occurd to me that if I dbld and then bid 2S over a 2C or 2D response that would clearly indicate that the hand was not Equal Level Conversion and so there would be no need for a jump to 3S in that sequence.....I think. :)

[Flame]

You can find good guidlines to when its gosh and when its not in robson segal book.

To your question, first they streach the overcall, especially the 2 level overcall, so in your example with a diamond suit and 18 hcp 2d is still the bid, and the need for gosh become rare. second if you have a diamond gosh, and you double and decided to double to show gosh, you already taken into consideration that partner might bid 2sp, which you will need to bid 3D, so if you were ready to bid 3d, then you will be ok with a jump to 3d incase partner bid 2c.

Well that seems reasonable. And after having given my last post a little more thought (probably should of done that BEFORE posting lol), it occurd to me that if I dbld and then bid 2S over a 2C or 2D response that would clearly indicate that the hand was not Equal Level Conversion and so there would be no need for a jump to 3S in that sequence.....I think. :)

You're missing something.

Only the bid of exactly one suit above ur bid can ever be considered to be 2 suiter, any other bid is always gosh, so bidding 2h over 2c by partner is gosh.

[Cowology]

You're missing something.

Only the bid of exactly one suit above ur bid can ever be considered to be  2 suiter, any other bid is always gosh, so bidding 2h over 2c by partner is gosh.

No, not missing anything. That is exactly what I was just referring to, only I was citing specifically the example I gave of

 

(1H)-DBL-(Pass)-2C

Pass-

 

What I ment was that after giving it some more thought it became clear that if my P responded 2C then the only ELC I could make would be 2D and thus a bid of 2S would show additional values so I wouldn't have to jump to 3S. I was excluding the possibility of a 2H bid, since that would be a direct cue of ops suit in this particular sequence and would show an entirely different type of hand than the one I was concerned with (Strong 1 suiter in S).

 

Sorry, I just wasn't clear that this sequence was specifically what I had in mind and was not speaking genearlly of 2H and 2S bids over a 2C response. I think I understand, but thanks for clarifying anyway. My fault. I'll try and be more clear next time :)

[inquiry]

You can find good guidlines to when its gosh and when its not in robson segal book.

To your question, first they streach the overcall, especially the 2 level overcall, so in your example with a diamond suit and 18 hcp 2d is still the bid, and the need for gosh become rare. second if you have a diamond gosh, and you double and decided to double to show gosh, you already taken into consideration that partner might bid 2sp, which you will need to bid 3D, so if you were ready to bid 3d, then you will be ok with a jump to 3d incase partner bid 2c.

Well that seems reasonable. And after having given my last post a little more thought (probably should of done that BEFORE posting lol), it occurd to me that if I dbld and then bid 2S over a 2C or 2D response that would clearly indicate that the hand was not Equal Level Conversion and so there would be no need for a jump to 3S in that sequence.....I think. :)

Right.