Strong 2 Club Openings (22+ HCP)

[fromageGB]

What do others recommend as a continuation structure over the strong 2♣ opener?

Assuming 2♣ is not just an "acol 2" but at worst 22+ balanced or a trick short of game :

2♦ negative, denies an A, denies a K, no 6 card suit

.. then 2♥ puppets 2♠, and 2♠ puppets 2NT unless spade support, opener's 3rd bid not forcing unless jump ; 2NT direct and 2NT via 2♥ both not forcing

2♥ positive, an ace or king, no 6 card suit

.. then all is GF, except that opener may pass 4m raise, and 2♠ still puppets 2NT unless spade support

2♠ available for a specific hand type

2NT upwards = any strength transfer to a 6 card suit, but then rebid over completion is positive or has values.

 

The initial transfer with a weak hand enables you to play in 3m rather than 4m if opener had a 2NT rebid, and might provide a game contract suit otherwise.

[fromageGB]

Having started with a 2♥ positive, if opener bids a major, with support bid "non-serious 3NT" with just that one A or K, with 2 or more make a serious cue. With no support bid 2NT over 2♠ or 4♥ over 3♥. (If opener was 2-suited with hearts and minor he would bid minor first.)

[blackshoe]

I think that defining 2♣ as "22+ HCP" and leaving it at that is probably a mistake. I have played this definition: balanced 23-24 or 25-26 or 29-30* or unbalanced 0-3 losers (LTC) if a major, 0-2 losers if a minor. The bid is forcing to game except that after 2♣-2♦-2NT, responder may pass. Responses are control showing through 3♣*. 3♦ and 3♥ are transfers, showing in effect a weak two bid in the next higher suit. Higher bids have assigned meanings but are very rare.

 

* 0-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6

 

A balanced 23-24 will normally have 8 controls, 25-26 nine controls, 29-30 11 controls.

 

Note: with the minimum balanced hand at 23 HCP, you may require some adjustment to the lower rungs of your NT ladder. One possibility:

 

12-16 HCP: open 1m, rebid 1NT

17-18 HCP: open 1m (usually), rebid 2NT

19-20 HCP: open 1NT (art., forcing), rebid 2NT

21-22 HCP: open 2♦, rebid 2NT

 

Another:

 

10-12 HCP: open 1NT

13-16 HCP: open 1m, rebid 1NT

17-18 HCP: open 1m, rebid 2NT

19-20 HCP: open 2NT

21-22 HCP: open 2♦, rebid 2NT

 

Re: "control responses are oriented to slam bidding". Of course. Who doesn't like to bid slams?

[Winstonm]

Bob and I put together a whole system of responses based on hand types but it was so complicated I have long since forgotten it. I think it is pretty good, though, to start with some concepts: If I remember, 2D was somewhat automatic after which opener showed his hand type: 2H=1 suiter (any suit) 2S-smaller NT, 2N-bigger NT, 3C,3D,3H,3S all 2-suiters, etc. An immediate 2H was a double negative.

 

I think we were onto something, though, as the most common types of hands, 1-suiters and NT hands, got the most room.

[TylerE]

So What do you open with:

 

xxx

-

AKQJx

AKQJx

 

?

[blackshoe]

So What do you open with:

 

xxx

-

AKQJx

AKQJx

 

?

Me? Depends. If Mexican 2♦ is available, I open 2♦, planning to rebid 3♣ — or possibly 4 if forced that high — showing a diamond-club two-suiter. If not, probably 1♦.

[Antrax]

Having read BBF extensively, I was convinced that you should never open 2♣ on two-suited hands, instead opting to open them at the 1-level. The problem was that people in the club hadn't read BBF, so we would sometimes get 1m swish. To solve that dilemma, I've come up with a tweak where with strong hands, you open 1m while staring intently at your partner. This has two upsides: the force of your gaze might make your partner more likely to bid, especially if you start frowning when it seems like he's reaching for a green card, and avoiding eye contact with the opponents signals weakness, which would encourage them to overcall on trash.

[32519]

When playing just strong 2 ♣ openings, I liked something like:

2 ♦ 4-7

2 ♥ 0-3

higher bids: transfers with 8+. With 5332 you transfer to NT first. Partner accepts the transfer with any kind of fit or bids his suit.

This suggestion of Codo so far still has the most support. So I've been mulling over it - how to improve on it? So now I am suggesting this modification:

2♦ as one of two possible hand types:

1. 4-7 HCP any distribution, or

2. 8+ HCP which includes a 5+ card ♥ suit.

 

I have a whole bunch of reasons for this change -

1. In the lesser likelihood that opener also has a 5-card ♥ suit, the strong hand gets to remain as declarer.

2. In the greater likelihood that opener has a strong balanced hand, the strong gets to remain as declarer after 2♣-2♦-2NT-3♦ (transfer to ♥)

3. Minimising artificial bids/memory load by not needing to add some other bid into the continuation structure to show a 5-card ♥ suit.

4. Players who hate artificial bids may need to jump straight to 3♥ over 2♣ to show 8+ HCP and a 5-card suit. Just have a look at all the bidding space that has been consumed if you choose to bid like this! Dumb, really dumb!!

 

Any takers? Codo, at least you should comment. We're still expanding on your idea!

[Vampyr]

How many 2♣ openers are you dealt? If you play that 2♦ is an artificial semi-positive or better, and 2♥ is an immediate double negative, you will do fine.

 

Your system design process is backwards, and it is taking ages. Also a system consisting of elements that you like best out of various BBOer's suggestions on completely different topics is likely to have holes and gaps and be totally unplayable. Put together a framework that is at least internally consistent, and play it. If you find that some hand-types are being handled poorly by your system, or that you have devoted certain bids/auctions to hand-types that seem to come up very infrequently, then look for better ways to handle to hand-types or utilise those auctions.

 

EDIT: PS don't do your #4 above. Include your heart positives (and all positives if you want) in your 2♦ bid. Remember that partner will most likely be rebidding 2NT, so if you have a decent way of showing suits over 2NT openers you don't really need to show them beforehand. For example, use 2♠ if you want to get out at 3m opposite partner's weakest balanced hand; don't use 2NT so as not to wrongside the NT and many other contracts, and use 3X bids as something specific, like a 6-card suit missing one of the top 3 and little outside.

[32519]

At our local club last, as dealer with a big 22+ HCP hand, I faced an awkward decision when the opponents butted in on the auction. Unfortunately I made the wrong decision. Both sides were red and this was the auction:

[hv=d=s&v=b&b=7&a=2c(22+%20HCP)p2s(8+%205-card%20suit)4h(In-your-face)dppp]133|100[/hv]

I held a 2245 distribution, the 2 card ♥ suit was both the Ace and King. With no fit in the ♠ suit, I had no guarantee that we would find a ♣ fit either. There was also no guarantee that 6NT is on. The decision was now weighing up 6♣ for a score of 1370, 6NT for a score of 1460, or 4♥X which needed to go down more than 4 for the better score. With a known minimum 30 HCP between us I settled for the X. Bad decision. 6♣ makes easy on the lie of the cards. 6NT failed by 1 as the cards lay, the ♦K and the ♠Q were the 2 offending cards, 1 onside and 1 offside. The ♠Q was onside but West held 4 ♠ to the queen and simply holds up the queen. Declarer held Ax in ♠ so can only finesse once.

 

East got lucky with him butting in like he did. He found a “double fit” in the red suits lacking in most of the top honours. He only went 4 down.

[32519]

4. Players who hate artificial bids may need to jump straight to 3♥ over 2♣ to show 8+ HCP and a 5-card suit. Just have a look at all the bidding space that has been consumed if you choose to bid like this! Dumb, really dumb!!

EDIT: PS don't do your #4 above. Include your heart positives (and all positives if you want) in your 2♦ bid.

Vampyr and I have finally agreed on something. :P

[Zelandakh]

3M has gone past the 3♦ where I potentially wanted to play?

You hold long diamonds with major suit fragments good enough to make 3M playable. So when you bid this way you are judging that 3M will play better than 2NT.

 

I am interested in your "get-out in 4m," a sequence where opener is expected to pass unless holding a good fit or whatever.

I do not have a system for it, although it would not be difficult to adjust many standard methods. For example, I play 2NT - 4♣ as a slammy hand with long diamonds. It would be reasonable to play this as a puppet to 4♦ after the 2♣ opening and bust response, catering to both hand types at the expense of some definition on the slam hands. The point being that the chances of Responder holding a slam drive have gone down considerably.

 

Making the 2♥ bid NF, or making opener's 2♠ rebid NF after 2♥, is in my opinion unplayable. Why shouldn't 2♥ be NF? Because responder might have a great fit for opener's hearts, despite having almost no HCP!

<snip>

If you want to be able to stop at 2 (and also lower your strength requirements for opening 2♣ with a major one-suiter, otherwise probably wouldn't be worth it), use Chris Ryall's "paradox responses" where 2♥ denies a good heart fit, and 2♠ is also negative, but worth a trick for hearts.

You first write that it is unplayable and then refer to one potential response scheme that makes it work. There are other possibilities too if your only Acol 2 hand is in hearts.

[mycroft]

On a very side note, someone was asking about how often responder's transfers pick off opener. My experience playing "one-over" transfers over 2♣ (♥ = double negative, ♠ = hearts, NT = spades) was "never". But then again, there were only 3 major suit positives in 15000 hands.

 

My experience playing Precision with transfer positive responses is "occasionally, but much more frequently we right-side the contract over those playing normal" (or even those playing "not strong club"). The thing is that partner has 4 suits and balanced hands, and you've picked off one of them. The number of times you want to play in opener's suit is more than the number of times you want to play in responder's, yeah (actually, at least in Precision in my experience, it's pretty much even, frankly, but let's assume that's confirmation bias for the moment); but you've only got a 20%-ish chance of picking off opener's suit; about a 40% chance you have just let the strong hand play your suit. Adjust to suit, of course, given that even when you do find a fit, half of those fits you want to play in NT anyway (that's why the "2NT = heart positive/spade positive" works well; it sucks when you want to play NT, but a weak hand with a good major suit is the least likely time to want to play NT).

 

How much the above paragraph translates to 2♣ strong is debatable; after all we positive on 8+ any 5-cd suit; rather than waiting for honour concentration. But still the second/third round bids, where responder does show her suit even though it's not "good", play better as transfers, if you have the room for it (which you usually don't).

[32519]

How many 2♣ openers are you dealt?

I play from time to time at the bigger clubs not overly far from where I live, Johannesburg and Pretoria. Every game there has pre-dealt hands. Fairly often they include big hands but with awkward continuation auctions; nothing with responder, no fit, major suit fits for the opponents which makes it difficult for our side to get to any minor suit slam after the opponents jump to game.

 

So it’s not as though this thread is out of the blue. I’m seeing big pre-dealt hands but at the same time acknowledging that my own methods are inadequate. So I come to the Forums for some help.

 

Your system design process is backwards, and it is taking ages. Also a system consisting of elements that you like best out of various BBOer's suggestions on completely different topics is likely to have holes and gaps and be totally unplayable. Put together a framework that is at least internally consistent, and play it. If you find that some hand-types are being handled poorly by your system, or that you have devoted certain bids/auctions to hand-types that seem to come up very infrequently, then look for better ways to handle to hand-types or utilise those auctions.

Err, that’s why I’m here; looking for better ways.

 

This part of your post could easily wrap up first round responses by responder. Without realizing it you may have answered my question to Zel higher up in this thread.

 

If you play that 2♦ is an artificial semi-positive or better, and 2♥ is an immediate double negative, you will do fine.

 

Include your heart positives (and all positives if you want) in your 2♦ bid. Remember that partner will most likely be rebidding 2NT, so if you have a decent way of showing suits over 2NT openers you don't really need to show them beforehand. For example, use 2♠ if you want to get out at 3m opposite partner's weakest balanced hand; don't use 2NT so as not to wrong side the NT and many other contracts, and use 3X bids as something specific, like a 6-card suit missing one of the top 3 and little outside.

I have every intention of using this suggestion of yours but modified as follows:

After a 2♣ opener, then –

1. 2♦ is any positive, 4+ but not limited to 7

2. 2♥ is a bust with 0-3 HCP. However, I am adding the following to this –

a. Either a balanced bust, or

b. A bust with a 5-card or longer major. If opener bids 2NT over 2♥ I can transfer into the major for signoff

3. 2♠ is also a bust with 0-3 HCP. However, I am adding the following to this –

a. Very specifically a ♦ bust (long ♦ suit)

b. Therefore, 2♠ is a transfer to 3♦

c. If partner bids anything else other than 3♦, obviously he has a very good reason for doing so, and is essentially declaring on his own hand strength and distribution

4. A direct raise to 3♣ is a ♣ bust. If partner bids anything else other than pass, obviously he has a very good reason for doing so, and is essentially declaring on his own hand strength and distribution

 

Thank you my sweet sister. :)

[Vampyr]

I play from time to time at the bigger clubs not overly far from where I live, Johannesburg and Pretoria. Every game there has pre-dealt hands. Fairly often they include big hands but with awkward continuation auctions; nothing with responder, no fit, major suit fits for the opponents which makes it difficult for our side to get to any minor suit slam after the opponents jump to game.

 

So it’s not as though this thread is out of the blue. I’m seeing big pre-dealt hands but at the same time acknowledging that my own methods are inadequate. So I come to the Forums for some help.

 

Read Law6E4. If these "pre-dealt hands" are not random, the game is illegal (although I believe that an exception can be made if certain hand-types are included for instructional purposes. Have the clubs disclosed that this is what they are doing?)

[32519]

Read Law6E4. If these "pre-dealt hands" are not random, the game is illegal (although I believe that an exception can be made if certain hand-types are included for instructional purposes. Have the clubs disclosed that this is what they are doing?)

Woah there! Now you got me. They use the card deal machines. Can't these be set to deal a specified amount of HCP to any given hand, while the actual cards dealt are random? Similarly, can't these deal machines be set to deal a specific number of cards in any particular suit to a particular hand while the actual cards are random?

 

I don't know enough about these machines as our club doesn't have one.

[gwnn]

Play 2C-2H as 'I will pass your 2NT rebid' and everything else as a GF. This is not my idea (I read it from Fred I think). 2C-2S is sometimes played as 8-10(11) balanced/semi-balanced because it's supposed to be an important range. 2NT can then be played as either 5-5 majors or single-suited with a major (i.e., one of them, not as an either/or bid) as those are the hands that are least likely you belong in no trumps and they are also important to show. Haven't read the whole thread so maybe these have already been mentioned.

[Vampyr]

Woah there! Now you got me. They use the card deal machines. Can't these be set to deal a specified amount of HCP to any given hand, while the actual cards dealt are random? Similarly, can't these deal machines be set to deal a specific number of cards in any particular suit to a particular hand while the actual cards are random?

 

Sure, this can be done, but it is against the Laws of Duplicate Bridge, unless it is for a specific purpose (eg Play with the Experts or teaching) and I should think that it must be disclosed.

 

In any case you could ask the management of the clubs.

[mycroft]

Last night I got lots of really difficult hands to bid, including one that could have reasonably be opened 2♣ (I didn't because it was a massive heart-club two-suiter, but I was really hoping partner didn't pass!). Some of them were, I'm sure, much easier to bid at the other table, because they had a strong NT available, and that would have made life easy. Having said that, there was at least one hand that was really hard to play at the other table, because they told the defence what to do; our table had it easy, 1NT-3NT and scene.

 

Oh, did I mention it was hand-dealt?

 

Seriously, though, really big hands are difficult to bid. You need to find a fit, and then find out how many of two or three specific cards partner holds - all at the same time not making calls that can be passed, and not bypassing the "zero" safety level. And if you cheat and use pass or 1♣ for all the strong hands to maximize your space, the pesky opponents steal it all anyway. It's not surprising that you get a 2♣ opening (one side or the other) once a session, and likely there will be some nasty decision to make once every two or three of those hands. I highly doubt that they are deliberately cooking the hands - after all, if they are, you can bring in a system that makes those hands easier to the detriment of other hands, that don't come up as often.

[GreenMan]

Sure, this can be done, but it is against the Laws of Duplicate Bridge, unless it is for a specific purpose (eg Play with the Experts or teaching) and I should think that it must be disclosed.

 

In any case you could ask the management of the clubs.

 

I wouldn't bother. This sounds like a classic case of availability bias -- the big hands that are hard to bid stand out in memory, in comparison with the common routine hands that pass quickly into the fog, so they "seem" to be happening a lot. And they stand out in large part because the OP's system doesn't handle them well -- which is why this thread got started.

[Winstonm]

So What do you open with:

 

xxx

-

AKQJx

AKQJx

 

?

 

2C then 4C if I remember (two suited minors)

[Winstonm]

Having read BBF extensively, I was convinced that you should never open 2♣ on two-suited hands, instead opting to open them at the 1-level. The problem was that people in the club hadn't read BBF, so we would sometimes get 1m swish. To solve that dilemma, I've come up with a tweak where with strong hands, you open 1m while staring intently at your partner. This has two upsides: the force of your gaze might make your partner more likely to bid, especially if you start frowning when it seems like he's reaching for a green card, and avoiding eye contact with the opponents signals weakness, which would encourage them to overcall on trash.

 

I almost agree with this - 2C on 2-suited hands need to be game-in-hand type hands. Then it is basically 2C-2any- pick a suit bid.