Cue Bid Response to TO Double

[biggerclub]

Club Game. Matchpoints. Against a weakish NS. Partner is W, I am E.

 

North dealt and opens 1H. Partner doubles. South passes.

 

I hold QTx, 9x, AT98, AJxx. I choose 2H. North passes. Partner bids 2NT. South passes.

 

Not at all what I expected. I have a lot of reasoning here, but I will wait to see what others suggest. (Partner and I are having a discussion (not an argument) but we still don't agree.)

[PhilKing]

Great spot for Lebensohl.

[aguahombre]

What you held is one very likely hand for the cuebid; although there could be many others, this is about what partner should anticipate when responding to the cue.

 

IMO, partner's first obligation with, say, 4-2-(43) and a minimum T/O double is to just bid 3 of the minor regardless of whether the doubleton heart contains a stopper. His 2NT bid should have a bit of extra strength. After his 3m, if you still wanted to know about a heart stopper to play 3NT you could recue.

 

So, with this hand, I would just raise 2NT to 3NT.

[Zelandakh]

If you play the major suit cue bid as INV+ then you should use a 2NT advance of it as showing a minimum. Then 3♣ shows this hand. Even if you play the cue bid as game-forcing, advancing 2NT with a normal takeout double hand is a good idea allowing other bids to show stronger hands and thereby simplifying the auction.

[Codo]

To define 2 NT as something not natural (lebensohl, both minors, whatever) is a good idea, as Zel said.

But I would surely not choose this bid for something artifical at the table without a prior discussion. OTOH,what does he show? A weak NT with say Axxx,Kx,Kxx,xxxx? Maybe.... Anyway, I have no idea, what partner wants to show me, but I just bid 3 ♣ and take it from there.

 

[ggwhiz]

Without much discussion I assume the cuebid to be 2 4-card suits (for now) with inv + values. Much more common after pard doubles a minor and you have 4-4 in the majors and want to get to the right one.

 

On that theory 2nt denies 4 spades and has a heart stop but didn't overcall 1nt so it's minimalish.

 

3nt might have 9 fast opposite 1 stopper but a 3♣ bid should get you to the correct minor and still let pard pick 3nt with all the (admittedly flawed) clues I can provide.

[aguahombre]

Without much discussion I assume the cuebid to be 2 4-card suits (for now) with inv + values. Much more common after pard doubles a minor and you have 4-4 in the majors and want to get to the right one.

 

On that theory 2nt denies 4 spades and has a heart stop but didn't overcall 1nt so it's minimalish.

I believe it is wasteful to have to bid 2S to confirm 4 of them after making a takeout double of hearts. If advancer does have 4 spades he can bid them next time enroute to whatever strain; assuming at the outset that cuebidder has a "responsive" hand without four spades seems to give us better use of space.

[ggwhiz]

I believe it is wasteful to have to bid 2S to confirm 4 of them after making a takeout double of hearts. If advancer does have 4 spades he can bid them next time enroute to whatever strain; assuming at the outset that cuebidder has a "responsive" hand without four spades seems to give us better use of space.

 

Reasonable for sure but the doubler could have a nasty choice to make if they can't bid 2nt opposite a cue that only promises an invite. Probably not really or very often but I find the situation and options interesting in terms of little or no discussion. And I love finding a good moyse which this may well be with pump protection provided by the 3-card holding.

[32519]

Club Game. Matchpoints. Against a weakish NS. Partner is W, I am E.

 

North dealt and opens 1H. Partner doubles. South passes.

 

I hold QTx, 9x, AT98, AJxx. I choose 2H. North passes. Partner bids 2NT. South passes.

 

Not at all what I expected. I have a lot of reasoning here, but I will wait to see what others suggest. (Partner and I are having a discussion (not an argument) but we still don't agree.)

I am trying to get my head around the OP, so I have included the East hand and the bidding. I have no idea how to include xx in the hand. Instead I used the smallest cards in the suit.

[hv=pc=n&e=sqt2h92dat98caj32&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hppdp2hp2nppp]133|200[/hv]

In the bidding sequence posted, many play that the 2♥ cue-bid promises a hand 1 HCP shy of the normal 12 HCP opening strength. The bid says absolutely zero about the actual ♥ holding. Partner bidding 2NT over this probably indicates that the original double was with a hand containg a number of ♥, now showing a stopper as well.

[biggerclub]

I bid 3c.

 

On the theory that partner is in trouble with only 1H stop and I have a hard time picturing a hand with 2H stops that starts with a x. I did tell her that I could pass 2NT on the theory of making the bid that makes it easiest to blame your partner in the post mortem if something goes wrong.

 

Partner claims I must have 5c for this (3c) bid, but I don't think so. My position is that with 5+c I either start 3c or, if stronger and shorter in Hs, follow the actual sequence with something other than 3c.

 

We both agree that 3c is not forward going as other bids (3NT, 3H, 4S (essentially broadcasting a Moysian fit), 4C, 4D) are available for hands with one more K or so.

 

Partner also claims that her x of 1H must have 4s, which had I known, I would have followed the cuebid with a 3s call.

 

Partner bid 3NT with A9xx, KQx, QJxx, xx.

 

I am not too fond of the double -- but she got us to a top: 3N making, extremely light (and was then mad at herself for blowing the diamond honor as a re-entry to hand to cash the 4th spade).

 

I am happy to make 3N with: East: A9xx; KQx; QJxx; xx// South: Jxx; Txx; Kx; T9xxx// West: QTx; 9x; AT98; AJxx// North: Kxx; AJxxx; xxx; KQ.

 

The play went H to the A, another H to the K, Qd finesse, Jd covered to the Ace (whereupon partner comments something to the effect of "make a plan and stick to it" in a self-critical tone); low spade to the A; Spade to the T and K; another H taken by the Q pitching a C from dummy; Spade to the J and Q revealing the 3-3 split and she is locked in dummy so runs her winners, losing two clubs at the end. We win 2s, 2h, 4d and 1c, losing AH on trick 1, Ks on trick 6; and 2 clubs at the end.

[biggerclub]

I am trying to get my head around the OP, so I have included the East hand and the bidding. I have no idea how to include xx in the hand. Instead I used the smallest cards in the suit.

[hv=pc=n&e=sqt2h92dat98caj32&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hppdp2hp2nppp]133|200[/hv]

In the bidding sequence posted, many play that the 2♥ cue-bid promises a hand 1 HCP shy of the normal 12 HCP opening strength. The bid says absolutely zero about the actual ♥ holding. Partner bidding 2NT over this probably indicates that the original double was with a hand containg a number of ♥, now showing a stopper as well.

 

P was actually E and I was W. I originally thought this but somehow convinced myself that W was N's LHO.

 

The auction went (1h) x (P) 2h

(P) 2N (P) 3c

(P) 3N All Pass.

[biggerclub]

I believe it is wasteful to have to bid 2S to confirm 4 of them after making a takeout double of hearts. If advancer does have 4 spades he can bid them next time enroute to whatever strain; assuming at the outset that cuebidder has a "responsive" hand without four spades seems to give us better use of space.

 

I strongly felt that the failure to bid 2s denied 4 spades. P claims that 4 spades are mandatory for her x. Oh yeah?

 

AKx, xx, QJxx, Kxxx . . . . I doubt she's passing.

 

As a younger man I played my fair share of 3-3 fits and got pretty damn good at it too. But eventually I gave up on bidding 3 card majors in response to TO doubles. Not that I ever bid a suit as weak as QTx

[32519]

P was actually E and I was W. I originally thought this but somehow convinced myself that W was N's LHO.

 

The auction went (1h) x (P) 2h

(P) 2N (P) 3c

(P) 3N All Pass.

Ok, after sorting out who sat where, we now have the actual auction as well:[hv=pc=n&w=sqt2h92dat98caj32&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hd(Take-out)p2h(Cue-bid%20%5Bmeaning%20what%5D)p2np3cp3nppp]133|200[/hv]

With this seating and bidding, my answer changes. Many play that a direct cuebid to a t/o X by an unpassed hand is game forcing. Without knowing what your official agreements are, I have this to say -

1. The 2♥ cue-bid is wrong. You don't have enough in HCP or distribution to force to game.

2. Both partner's 2NT and 3NT bids are fine, the first one maybe could have shown the ♠ suit, the second one in response to the GF cue-bid.

 

So maybe you were lucky to get a top on a bidding misunderstanding.

[biggerclub]

Many play that a direct cuebid to a t/o X by an unpassed hand is game forcing. . . .

 

Partner is more experienced than that. She will read this as, using the nomenclature from above, responsive . . . or at least possibly responsive. I am asking her for more information.

 

When she bid 2NT, I did not know if she felt compelled to show a single heart stop. So I offered her an out with 3 clubs.

 

I fully approve of 3NT with KQx even though I still kind of feel that the original TOx was not right. I used to play like that, but now I just pass these balanced 13 counts. Or in this case, 12.

[microcap]

Along similar lines but with one significant difference, Rex and I had a typical disaster as follows.

 

The competitive auction went: RHO Opens 1♣, playing standard and no alert so I assume it is at least 3 cards. I doubled. I held:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=st9754hakq6dk75c3]133|100[/hv] and opted to pretend I was 4-4 in the majors--feel free to disagree with this choice.

 

Anyway, now LHO bids 1NT, and Rex bids 2♣. Is this a cue bid or natural with a 6+ card club suit?

[biggerclub]

Along similar lines but with one significant difference, Rex and I had a typical disaster as follows.

 

The competitive auction went: RHO Opens 1♣, playing standard and no alert so I assume it is at least 3 cards. I doubled. I held:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=st9754hakq6dk75c3]133|100[/hv] and opted to pretend I was 4-4 in the majors--feel free to disagree with this choice.

 

Anyway, now LHO bids 1NT, and Rex bids 2♣. Is this a cue bid or natural with a 6+ card club suit?

 

I bid 2s, planning to pass 3c (partner should realize), carry on to game over 3 of a major and bid 3 hearts over 3d.

[microcap]

I bid 2s, planning to pass 3c (partner should realize), carry on to game over 3 of a major and bid 3 hearts over 3d.

 

 

So my question is though, is 2♣ a forcing cue bid or can it show clubs? I felt it could be natural after the 1NT responder bid. Rex violently disagreed.

[PhilKing]

So my question is though, is 2♣ a forcing cue bid or can it show clubs? I felt it could be natural after the 1NT responder bid. Rex violently disagreed.

 

You can play it how you want, but it's a cue for me.

 

Natural is fine though - you then have to play double of 1NT for take-out to cater for, say a 44M 6 count.

[biggerclub]

So my question is though, is 2♣ a forcing cue bid or can it show clubs? I felt it could be natural after the 1NT responder bid. Rex violently disagreed.

 

Almost everyone is playing it forcing. When in doubt, bid again and give partner a chance to clarify. Even if partner is trying to sign off in 2c, 3c can hardly be that much worse.

 

You can go a long way in bridge if you start thinking about the auction in terms of trying to help your partner out rather than trying to interpret every bid as having one and only one meaning -- and then trying to win the argument in the post-mortem. In fact it is always a good idea when in doubt to list all the possible meanings of partner's bid.

 

Here the possible intentions are 1) game force or even better; 2) as the OP in this thread indicates, responsive -- I have some values, but I am not sure what is best -- tell me more about your hand; 3) natural and sign-off; 4) to the extent different from 1 -- natural and forcing for one or more rounds. One thing that makes 3) unlikely is that partner can hardly expect to be closing the auction with a 2c bid, nor does 2c consume any bidding room -- so with a long club suit and a weak hand, just pass and see what happens. You will get another chance.

 

LHO's 1NT over your x is an admittedly extremely non-standard call. She could redouble to show your majors and suggest that her side had the balance of cards -- she could bring in a suit of her own -- she could raise clubs - - she could make a trappy sort of pass with a lot of hands. To voluntarily jump in with 1NT facing a fairly decent likelihood of being doubled herself seems a bit . . . adventurous. Don't let the opponents bad bidding stop you from trying to help out your partner.

 

One more thing -- with long clubs and a decent hand, partner would almost certainly double the 1NT response rather than bidding 2c.

[aguahombre]

I have one club. Righty has 3+. Lefty has bid 1NT, not 1D, or 1M. Partner has 6+? I don't think that will happen very often.

[microcap]

Almost everyone is playing it forcing. When in doubt, bid again and give partner a chance to clarify. Even if partner is trying to sign off in 2c, 3c can hardly be that much worse.

 

You can go a long way in bridge if you start thinking about the auction in terms of trying to help your partner out rather than trying to interpret every bid as having one and only one meaning -- and then trying to win the argument in the post-mortem. In fact it is always a good idea when in doubt to list all the possible meanings of partner's bid.

 

Here the possible intentions are 1) game force or even better; 2) as the OP in this thread indicates, responsive -- I have some values, but I am not sure what is best -- tell me more about your hand; 3) natural and sign-off; 4) to the extent different from 1 -- natural and forcing for one or more rounds. One thing that makes 3) unlikely is that partner can hardly expect to be closing the auction with a 2c bid, nor does 2c consume any bidding room -- so with a long club suit and a weak hand, just pass and see what happens. You will get another chance.

 

LHO's 1NT over your x is an admittedly extremely non-standard call. She could redouble to show your majors and suggest that her side had the balance of cards -- she could bring in a suit of her own -- she could raise clubs - - she could make a trappy sort of pass with a lot of hands. To voluntarily jump in with 1NT facing a fairly decent likelihood of being doubled herself seems a bit . . . adventurous. Don't let the opponents bad bidding stop you from trying to help out your partner.

 

One more thing -- with long clubs and a decent hand, partner would almost certainly double the 1NT response rather than bidding 2c.

 

Thank you for the excellent response-- pretty much exactly what Rex said as well. On the other hand, I am not smart enough to think at that level of complexity :(

[Zelandakh]

Partner is more experienced than that.

What makes you think that an experienced player would not play a major suit cue as a GF after a takeout double? I personally recommend this treatment for intermediates and non-expert pick up partnerships, since it simplifies these auctions greatly with minimal cost.

 

The situation is different in microcap's auction. Here, assuming 2♣ is a cue (which I would without any special agreement otherwise) it is useful to play it as less than GF. My recommendation would be "forcing to suit agreement", although even then there are cases that you need to work on as a partnership.

[biggerclub]

What makes you think that an experienced player would not play a major suit cue as a GF after a takeout double? I personally recommend this treatment for intermediates and non-expert pick up partnerships, since it simplifies these auctions greatly with minimal cost.

 

The situation is different in microcap's auction. Here, assuming 2♣ is a cue (which I would without any special agreement otherwise) it is useful to play it as less than GF. My recommendation would be "forcing to suit agreement", although even then there are cases that you need to work on as a partnership.

 

So . . . do I just respond 2s (holding QTx, xx, AT98, AJxx) at MPs to the x? As I said higher up in the thread, I have found myself in more than 1 3-3 fits bidding like this in my younger days. If partner is right, that she unqualifiedly has 4 spades (or 16+ HCP) to x 1 heart, then 2s is the right call, IMO.

[aguahombre]

My contention is that the 2H cue in the OP is G.F, if it holds 4 spades; otherwise it is not necessarily and might have the size and shape shown in the OP.

 

We have not found it to be a problem advancing spades with only four of them and less than G.F.; but, jumping to 4S with only 4 could lead to some really silly results.

 

It follows that the priority of doubler need not be to confirm holding 4 spades immediately after the 2H cue. A 3S continuation after the cue will show the concern, and Doubler can agree with 4S or not.

[Zelandakh]

Invitational with both minors is the small loss you take if you play the major suit cue as GF. In that case you just have to suck it up and jump to 3 of a minor. Obviously the cue is better on these hands if you have it available, so that you play in the correct minor when this is the limit of the hand.