How & when to show spade support?

[bd71]

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Standard 2/1. Pairs.

 

What's your bid per the options in the poll?

[ArtK78]

Looks like a perfectly normal splinter bid to me.

[Lord Molyb]

Surely 2/1 has 4♣ available as a splinter.

[bd71]

Modified the "other" option in the poll to the omitted splinter response. Added new "other" at the end.

[broze]

Too good for a limited splinter imo. I would bid 2NT Jacoby and then show the shortness.

[inquiry]

This is a very good question!

 

A splinter bid shows shortness in the splintered suit (check), four card (or more) support (check), no more than 15 "support points" (some play 14 support points) (check).

 

Two over one then support partner shows game force with support (check), and a decent or better five card suit (nope)-- so 2♦ is out.

 

Jacoby 2NT shows game forcing hand with support (check) not suitable for 2-over-1 (check) or Splinter (whoops).

 

A serious question you can ask here, is for some reason this hand 10 hcp plus three points for the singleton club worth more than a usual 15 (or 14) max of a splinter bid? You could be concern about what partner might do with a hand like...♠KQxxxx ♥QJxx ♦x ♣AQxx. If the answer is he would devalue his hand and sign-off, then that supports the view to bid 2NT. I would splinter the hand, but I certainly understand concerns that this is an exceptionally good hand to splinter on.

[TylerE]

That sums it up pretty well. I'd also add that for many (especially Adv+), the splinter could also be a stronger hand, say 18+ that is planning on driving to at least the 5 level, and is fishing for a grand opposite an appropriate hand.

[billw55]

To me, the purpose of splinters is to alert partner to the possibility of a low-point slam if he has no waste in my short suit. I think this is the perfect message for this hand. For example if partner holds the right 11 count like KQxxxx Qx Ax xxx, slam is near cold. But if he holds something like KQxxx x AQx KJxx, which has substantially more values but in the wrong places, slam chances are slim.

[ggwhiz]

To me, the purpose of splinters is to alert partner to the possibility of a low-point slam if he has no waste in my short suit.

 

I agree with this part but think this is the wrong message on this hand.

 

ie. Opposite KQxxx, Qxx, x, AKxx you are going nowhere but after 2nt and a 3♦ bid you have not pre-empted yourselves out of the bidding room.

 

ps. I would bid the same way if you make the ♥A the ♦A to troll for that 3♦ response.

[billw55]

I agree with this part but think this is the wrong message on this hand.

 

ie. Opposite KQxxx, Qxx, x, AKxx you are going nowhere but after 2nt and a 3♦ bid you have not pre-empted yourselves out of the bidding room.

Yes, interesting. The Jacoby shortness response identifies the same situation (stiff opposite spots) but in reverse. I see your point.

[ArtK78]

I agree with this part but think this is the wrong message on this hand.

 

ie. Opposite KQxxx, Qxx, x, AKxx you are going nowhere but after 2nt and a 3♦ bid you have not pre-empted yourselves out of the bidding room.

 

ps. I would bid the same way if you make the ♥A the ♦A to troll for that 3♦ response.

Using Jacoby 2NT is great if you find diamond shortness in partner's hand. But, if you don't, you will then have to guess if it makes sense to move over partner's signoff.

 

For example, suppose partner has KQxxx xxx AK xxx. If you use Jacoby 2NT, opener will deny a shortness and also deny significant extras. His hand is a minimum under any evaluation scheme. But, opposite your hand, slam is very likely to be cold.

 

If you splinter 4♣, opener will cue bid diamonds, you will cue bid hearts, and you are off to the races.

 

Even if you change your hand to Axxx Kxx Axxxx x, the splinter is likely to work better than Jacoby 2NT. In that case, partner's hand may fit well enough so that he can just key card. For example, if he has one of the magic hands that you are hoping to find with Jacoby 2NT - KQxxx Axx x Axxx - he could just key card over a 4♣ splinter. If he finds the partnership is off a key card, a small slam is probably a good bet (you have to have something for your splinter bid besides two key cards, 4 card spade support and a club singleton). And if he finds that the partnership has all of the key cards, he can follow up with an asking bid in hearts to look for the grand.

 

I suspect that the 4♣ splinter will identify more of the hands on which a slam is possible than Jacoby 2NT.

 

By the way, AKxx is not a terrible holding opposite a singleton (not ideal, but not terrible). KQxx is much worse. Partner should not dismiss the possibility of a slam just because he holds AKxx opposite a singleton.

[ggwhiz]

Using Jacoby 2NT is great if you find diamond shortness in partner's hand. But, if you don't, you will then have to guess if it makes sense to move over partner's signoff.

 

What guess? I'll cuebid hearts and respect a signoff of 4♠ which shows a real dog in our style if bid directly. 3nt would show a good minimum with no shortness and all this action comes below game. After 3nt - 4♥ - 5♣ I'll bid 5♥ and pay the price when they can take 3 fast diamond tricks so it's by no means foolproof but the same thing could happen after a splinter.

 

Should pard show a stiff heart, I bid 3♠ and cue bids happen or not, all below game. After a 4♣ splinter on this hand if pard doesn't own the ♦A the rest your auction is RIP or slam tries with the same or less safety at the 5 level.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa863hak4d98532c8&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp]133|200|

 

Standard 2/1. Pairs.

What's your bid per the options in the poll?[/hv]

IMO 4♣ = 10, 2N = 8, 3♣ = 6, 4♠ = 4, 2♦ = 2. Even if you play old-fashioned delayed game-raises, this hand is unsuitable for 2♦.

[karlson]

Given the ratty 5-card suit, the splinter seems totally fine. Partner is not going to bid 4♠ with a stiff diamond and the ♣A

[Vampyr]

A serious question you can ask here, is for some reason this hand 10 hcp plus three points for the singleton club worth more than a usual 15 (or 14) max of a splinter bid?

 

Is that usual? I would never splinter with a hand with 14(!) points, and never with more than 4 controls.

[ArtK78]

 

A serious question you can ask here, is for some reason this hand 10 hcp plus three points for the singleton club worth more than a usual 15 (or 14) max of a splinter bid?

 

Last I checked A AK was 11 HCP.

 

 

[mike777]

Looks like a perfectly normal splinter bid to me.

 

 

Art said it all.

[MrAce]

Art for president!

[fromageGB]

My immediate reaction was 4♣, but before I pull the card out I change my mind. While 11 hcp is OK for a splinter, in my book A AK is just too much. I'm upgrading this to 2NT, as I rebid 3♠ to show a club shortage next. That gives much more room to investigate slam, and if partner makes a cooperative try after cue bidding, I can decline.

[fromageGB]

...

For example, suppose partner has KQxxx xxx AK xxx. If you use Jacoby 2NT, opener will deny a shortness and also deny significant extras. His hand is a minimum under any evaluation scheme. But, opposite your hand, slam is very likely to be cold.

 

If you splinter 4♣, opener will cue bid diamonds, you will cue bid hearts, and you are off to the races.

Once I show a GF with a club shortage, he is going to cue in diamonds even more than he will over a splinter. In fact, dare I suggest that he will NOT cue over a splinter?

[ArtK78]

The choice between making a splinter bid and bidding 2NT should be based not solely on the strength of the hand but on who should be the captain and who should be the servent; i.e., who should be asking and who should be telling. Here, you can provide your partner with a great deal of information in one bid - 4 card spade support, game forcing values, shortness in clubs - which should put partner in a position to make an intelligent assessment of slam prospects. He will know that secondary club cards should be discounted, and that secondary cards in the other suits are valuable. Your hand is not so strong so that you will be able to ask questions and get enough information to make an intelligent assessment of slam prospects unless you are lucky enough to get a diamond shortness showing response from partner.

 

So, even though your 2NT asking bid starts at a lower level, it is far from clear that you will get the information that you need if you take control. On this hand, it is likely to be better to tell than to ask.

[fromageGB]

So, even though your 2NT asking bid starts at a lower level, it is far from clear that you will get the information that you need if you take control. On this hand, it is likely to be better to tell than to ask.

I think you miss the point. After 2NT I show the club shortage with a 3♠ bid and NOBODY is in control. I have described my hand. Partner may expect a couple more in hcp, but I think he will be compensated with what I have. Certainly, if my club shortage made his hand better, HE can take control.

[ArtK78]

I think you miss the point. After 2NT I show the club shortage with a 3♠ bid and NOBODY is in control. I have described my hand. Partner may expect a couple more in hcp, but I think he will be compensated with what I have. Certainly, if my club shortage made his hand better, HE can take control.

So, essentially, you are making a splinter raise with your 3♠ bid. That is fine as far as it goes.

But when you say that nobody is in control, that could be the worst of all possible worlds. Someone should be the captain on this auction.

[Codo]

How can this hand be too strong for a splinter?

[fromageGB]

... But when you say that nobody is in control, that could be the worst of all possible worlds. Someone should be the captain on this auction.

The topic of "someone in control" has been discussed recently.

 

My view is that there are some auctions (of which this is one) that start off with both hands equal, neither in control, describing their hands. After 1♠ 2NT neither is in control. One has expressed 12 hcp, 5 cards, the other 13 hcp, 4 cards. Both pretty equal. They then make a further bid: 3♣ (= no shortage, no expression of strength); 3♠ (= club shortage, no expression of strength). Now opener can refuse control by signing off with non-serious 3NT, or assume temporary control (which may be usurped) by making a serious cue bid. After cue showing or denial, if opener bids 4♥ this is a relinquishment, expressing slam interest with additional values, but denying a powerhouse. Now responder assumes control by ace asking or another continuation, or by signing off in game.

 

Bidding, in my view, is an exchange, sometimes a conversation between equals, until one party has enough information to come off the fence. Often, of course, you are off the fence with the first bid. But not this sequence.