bd71 Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Painfully basic no doubt...and yet we had a misunderstanding on it last night. Assume you are playing fairly standard 2/1. 1m (1S) X (2S)X How do you play the 2nd double? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 This is a matter of partnership agreement. I have seen some partnerships that agree that this double shows 4 hearts, and others that agree that it denies 4 hearts and shows extras. Personally, I think the double should show extras without 4 hearts. With 4 hearts you can bid hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Depends somewhat of the meaning of 2NT (do you play some kind of good/bad 2NT?). But in any case a hand like xx-Axx-AKJx-AQxx would fit. I agree with Art that it should deny four hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 I play a weak NT-based system, and that X shows something like a decent strong NT without a stop in spades. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 It's ostensibly for takeout. In an ideal world it would always be 13(54), but it also has to include one-suiters which are too strong for 3m, strong balanced hands without a spade stop, 22(54) shapes, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Extras, takeout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Cards usually although with one pard we invert 2N and x, so this would be co-op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Extras, takeout. When there is only one 'unbid' suit, a rigid 'takeout' doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly with 4♥, 6♦ or 5♣ I'm bidding the suit. Therefore, takeout means 2245 or maybe 1354 or some variants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Have another look at Roger's write-up on doubles. Doubles in situations like this just stand for hands that need to do something but do not have a convenient call, retaining flexibility. You can apply this logic to the majority of nebulous doubles. Andy gives a good write-up of how that might be applied in the specific auction. As helene and Phil point out, agreements regarding a 2NT rebid are also relevant and as ahydra writes the NT range has an effect - when Opener doubles after a response and 2 level bid from RHO, it is sometimes referred to as a "strong NT double" in WeakNTland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 When there is only one 'unbid' suit, a rigid 'takeout' doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly with 4♥, 6♦ or 5♣ I'm bidding the suit. Therefore, takeout means 2245 or maybe 1354 or some variants. Yeah, sorry, I assumed that "takeout" was the preferred nomenclature for a hand with short spades and approximately [number of cards needed to bid <suit> - 1] in each other <suit>. I certainly didn't mean that you had a hand that would make a takeout double of an opening spade bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 When there is only one 'unbid' suit, a rigid 'takeout' doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly with 4♥, 6♦ or 5♣ I'm bidding the suit. Therefore, takeout means 2245 or maybe 1354 or some variants. I don't really get the point. Do you want a better adjective? Partner is allowed to take out to a suit that has already been bid, and we are allowed to double and remove clubs to diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I don't really get the point. Do you want a better adjective? Partner is allowed to take out to a suit that has already been bid, and we are allowed to double and remove clubs to diamonds. No, just distinguish between takeout and TAKEOUT. With a 'TAKEOUT DOUBLE', I'm not sure I want partner passing a lot. With a 'takeout double', I don't mind at all. Per Bridge World we now have "cooperative takeout' which fits the definition nicely without abusing caps-lock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 If I made a takeout double here, I wouldn't want him to pass very often. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 You could just define takeout as "takeout within the context of the auction" and not need any new terms or caps lock at all. Perhaps wyman already does this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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