After showing a two-suiter opposite 2NT

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What about this one for Opener :

AKxx

Kx

Axx

AQxx

 

opposite

xx

AQxxx

KJxx

xx

[JLOGIC]

Opener would sign off in 4N as they have no fit and both black suits double stopped.

 

If you played what I suggested opener would sign off in 4H.

 

Of course no method is going to be perfect on every deal though, no matter what methods you play you might miss some good ones and get to some bad ones. The idea of this thread is to suggest methods that you think maximize your chance of gettingto good ones and staying out ofbad ones.

[Finch]

Minority or not, it just doesn't seem prudent to go past 3NT with a 4D bid on only a 4 card suit.

 

I thought I was being kind by not giving a 20-point hand opposite where 7D just needs hearts 4-2 and diamonds not 4-0 e.g. AKx Kx AQxxx Axx.

 

You simply can't say responder must have a 5-card suit to go past 3NT.

Let's give responder some more high cards

 

AQx

Ax

KJxx

AQxx

 

Kx

KQxxx

AQxx

xx

 

7D by opener is a huge spot, and 7D by responder is good. responder has got a slam force opposite a 2NT opening bid, but how are you planning to bid responder's hand?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

After a transfer, then 5NT = choice of small slam .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But how would you bid it ? ( I assume using your transfer method ) ?

[cherdano]

Btw, I think all these keycard asks should be 6-keycard BW (while asking for the trump queen of the agreed suit). You always have to play at least two rounds of responder's side suit before you can start ruffing. Yes you miss slams on one of two finesses, I can live with that...

 

The queen of the 2nd suit can then be treated as a king in subsequent asks.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Btw, I think all these keycard asks should be 6-keycard BW (while asking for the trump queen of the agreed suit). You always have to play at least two rounds of responder's side suit before you can start ruffing. Yes you miss slams on one of two finesses, I can live with that...

 

The queen of the 2nd suit can then be treated as a king in subsequent asks.

a la my post # 47 ...( 6 Ace-RKC ... )

[PhilKing]

Btw, I think all these keycard asks should be 6-keycard BW (while asking for the trump queen of the agreed suit). You always have to play at least two rounds of responder's side suit before you can start ruffing. Yes you miss slams on one of two finesses, I can live with that...

 

The queen of the 2nd suit can then be treated as a king in subsequent asks.

 

FWIW I don't think that is technically correct.

 

If opener holds:

 

♠AQx

♥Axx

♦KQJTx

♣Ax

 

When partner transfers to spades and bids 4♣, he wants to key card for spades only, since we may make seven opposite ♠KJxxx ♥Kx ♦Ax ♣QTxx. Key card for the minor by either player, or major suit RKC by responder should be 6 ace (in my case I make auto responses of 5♥ plus), because we rarely have enough discards not to need both kings.

[aguahombre]

FWIW I don't think that is technically correct.

 

If opener holds:

 

♠AQx

♥Axx

♦KQJTx

♣Ax

 

When partner transfers to spades and bids 4♣, he wants to key card for spades only, since we may make seven opposite ♠KJxxx ♥Kx ♦Ax ♣QTxx. Key card for the minor by either player, or major suit RKC by responder should be 6 ace (in my case I make auto responses of 5♥ plus), because we rarely have enough discards not to need both kings.

I don't understand how this conflicts. It is responder who will Keycard when opener bids 4M. The Major suit queen will be shown or denied, and the club king will be shown or denied.

[PhilKing]

I don't understand how this conflicts. It is responder who will Keycard when opener bids 4M. The Major suit queen will be shown or denied, and the club king will be shown or denied.

 

It doesn't in that sequence, but I play similar to the JLogic way whereby 4♠ just shows almost all minimums and may have two spades, and 4M+1 is RKCB for the major with 5 key cards (for him it is RKC for the minor and should be 6 ace).

 

You can't get me to sign off with that hand!

[aguahombre]

Yes, any time one side has shown balanced, and the other side two suits, there are 6 keys.

 

I just don't show a major fit without one on the chance partner wants to key for the major. So I gobble up 4NT with 2-3 in the two suits. Responder can "answer" of the 6 keys for the minor if she wants to over 4NT.

[gnasher]

There's one other method that I've seen, described by Marshall Miles in Bridge From The Top. Opener shows his suitability in steps: bad, average, good, excellent. Then responder can sign off in 4NT or one of the trump suits (except opposite the "excellent" hand), or he can bid a new suit as a keycard-ask. Miles suggests a numerical method where aces and key kings are 2 and key queens are 1, but you could play two-suits Keycard instead, or you could have responder show how many keycards he has.

[Zelandakh]

Seems like a no brainer to play this unless you do something else very useful with your 3D 3H 3S (I have heard of some people playing that it shows a 4 card minor with 4m direct showing 5 which also seems very good).

When I first designed this part of the system, this is roughly what I put in. However, I now think the transfers are simply better. There is an added bonus for me in that this also mirrors precisely what I like to play over a 1NT opening. Incidentally, I think there is a reasonable argument to drop 3♠ Smolen after a 2NT opening, since this sequence can usefully be employed to help with probing for minor suit slams, whereas the 5♥4♠ hand is comparatively easy to handle elsewhere.

 

AQx

Ax

KJxx

AQxx

 

Kx

KQxxx

AQxx

xx

But how would you bid it ? ( I assume using your transfer method ) ?

How about

 

2NT - 3♦;

3♥ - 4♣ (diamonds);

4♦ - 4♥ (RKCB);

4♠ - 5♣ (K ask);

5♦ - 5♠ (SSA);

6♣ - 7♦?

[gnasher]

How about

 

2NT - 3♦;

3♥ - 4♣ (diamonds);

4♦ - 4♥ (RKCB);

4♠

 

At this point I'd be trying to decide between 7♦ and 7NT. With diamonds 3-2 and hearts 4-2/3-3 we can count 13 tricks in diamonds unless partner has specifically AJxx Ax KJxx AQJx, but even opposite that 7♦ is pretty good.

 

Finding 7NT when it's right is tricky, because it will usually depend on whether partner has ♥J as well as some extra black-suit winners. For example, opposite AQxx AJ Kxxx AKxx we want to play 7NT, but opposite either AQxx Ax KJxx AKxx or AJxx AJ Kxxx AQJx we should be in 7♦.

[PhilKing]

I'm afraid you are basically in a minority of one here.

How do you expect to bid

 

AKxx

Kx

AQxx

Axx

 

opposite

 

xx

AQxxx

KJxx

xx

?

 

2NT 3♦

3♥ 4♦

5♥ (1 or 4 auto 6 ace reply for minor) 5♠(Spiral)

6♦ (Q♦, K♠, no ♣K)-7♦

 

Available in over 30 "equivalent" two-suited auctions.

[Zelandakh]

You missed the context Phil. Frances' question was how to bid the hand if making a transfer and showing a second suit promised at least 5-5.

[Zelandakh]

At this point I'd be trying to decide between 7♦ and 7NT. With diamonds 3-2 and hearts 4-2/3-3 we can count 13 tricks in diamonds unless partner has specifically AJxx Ax KJxx AQJx, but even opposite that 7♦ is pretty good.

 

Finding 7NT when it's right is tricky, because it will usually depend on whether partner has ♥J as well as some extra black-suit winners. For example, opposite AQxx AJ Kxxx AKxx we want to play 7NT, but opposite either AQxx Ax KJxx AKxx or AJxx AJ Kxxx AQJx we should be in 7♦.

In the sequence I gave, Opener has denied a side king and shown the ♠Q so several of these hands are not possible.

[gnasher]

In the sequence I gave, Opener has denied a side king and shown the ♠Q so several of these hands are not possible.

Yes. I wasn't discussing the auction you'd have opposite that specific opening hand, where all roads lead to 7♦. My point was that if you are opposite a hand where 7NT is right, it's hard to fnd out about it.

 

For example, in your auction, if responder shows ♣K, you still won't know whether to play 7♦ or 7NT, because it depends on whether opener has ♥J.

 

Or, after opener denied a king, he might have had AQJx AJ Kxxx AJxx, where 7NT is about 95% but 7♦ is a mere 68%. Maybe opener would convert to 7NT with this, though.

[Zelandakh]

Yes, you are right about this. Do you have any suggestions? Aside from adding a step for QJ to the SSA (which has its own problems) it is difficult to see any way of getting the required information here outside of having started 1♣ and relayed (which is a little bit more than a small tweak).

[gnasher]

Yes, you are right about this. Do you have any suggestions? Aside from adding a step for QJ to the SSA (which has its own problems) it is difficult to see any way of getting the required information here outside of having started 1♣ and relayed (which is a little bit more than a small tweak).

Asking bids after Keycard aren't really my speciality, but it seems to me that in this auction the red-suit jacks are more important than the black-suit queens. For the specific case of a two-suiter opposite a balanced hand perhaps you should change the meaning of one of your new-suit bids, eg 5♠ in your auction. Or if you were playing spirals you could change the order to something like: keycards, queen of trumps, long side-suit king, short side-suit kings, long side-suit queen, jack of trumps, long side-suit jack.

 

I can vaguely remember Phil telling me about asking for the jack of trumps, in about 1990, so maybe he's already got a set of rules to cover this.