gnasher Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 In a sequence like2NT-3♦3♥-4♦I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract. Has anyone got any better methods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 I've been playing with this problem - what I've been experimenting with is using the lowest cue to "flag" slam interest in the minor, and any other cue to be for the major, with 4N as a regressive offer to play. I have no real results to report yet, I haven't trotted it out in a partnership setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Well, you could look at the Kokishian flags and scrambles thing in IPBM from the early 80s - I could find it if you need. One of the Canadian pairs wee playing it in Shanghai. http://info.ecatsbridge.com/Systems/2007WorldChampionships-Shanghai/VeniceCup/canada/summerscaley-habert.pdf Note 30. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 In a sequence like2NT-3♦3♥-4♦I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract. Has anyone got any better methods? Maybe not "better" but a simple method, dating back to the 1960s, is automatic aces. There are six keycards (here the keys are the aces and the red kings). Step-responses skirt round natural sign-offs. e.g.4♥/4N/5♦ = Natural but unenthusiastic.4♠ = 3 keys. 5♣ = 4 keys.5♥ = 5 keys.You can tweak less cramped auctions to give suit-preference and more definition (e.g trump queens). To save space, you may consider condensing 4♥ and 4N into 4♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Why not GWTP and just play GF transfers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 One solution is to play transfers on the previous round. 2NT - 3♦; 3♥==3♠ = cog (nat 3NT) or clubs or strong one-suited slam try3NT = 4 spades, non-forcing4♣ = diamonds4♦ = 5-5 majors4♥ = mild slam try After 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠==3NT = 2 hearts (now 4♣ = 4 clubs; 4♦ = 5 clubs; 4♥ = strong slam try4♣ = 3+ hearts, 4+ clubs4♦ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, good hand for slam4♥ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, bad hand for slam You do need an alternative route for showing 5♥4♠ and slam interest if you were previously using 3♦->3♠ for this but that is not a problem in most systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Or you can play 4♦ as Zel's cooperative slam try - opener bids next step if not fitting diamonds, and with support shows aces/keycards in higher steps. If a good heart fit is not ruled out by the 3♥ completion, you need to allow opener to correct the diamond contract to hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) In a sequence like2NT-3♦3♥-4♦Responder should have at least a 5-5 to go past 3NT ... and wants to play in one of these suits:After 4♦:??4♥ = agree ♥ and the next 4 steps can be ( EDIT :) 6-Ace RKC-showing agreeing ♦: Opener is in the narrow range of 20-21, so Responder remains Captain. If ♥ agreed, then Responder can either pass, bid 4S = RKC or 4NT = Exclusion ( ♠-void )... EDIT: again, use 6 Ace-RKC . If ♦ agreed ( via the RKC-showing ) , then Responder can place the contract or ask for the ♦Q ( next step ) or K-ask ( 2nd-step ). Edited May 16, 2013 by TWO4BRIDGE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Responder should have at least a 5-5 to go past 3NT ... and wants to play in one of these suits: No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Why not GWTP and just play GF transfers? I was going to say that.You can then combine that with second round transfers as Zel says : 2NT - 3D3H = 3/4 card support, then 3S = relay to 3NT, then 4C = 5-5 reds might be quite light slam try, 4D = 5-5 roundeds similarly3NT = 4 clubs, slam try4C = 4 diamonds, slam try4D = 5332 slam try in hearts4S = keycard (our 2-suited major hands go through 3C) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Responder should have at least a 5-5 to go past 3NT ... and wants to play in one of these suits:After 4♦: Disagree strongly. Why does this need to be a 5/5? A strong 5-4, even 6-4 may have a much better play in a possible 4-4 fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Why does this need to be a 5/5? A strong 5-4, even 6-4 may have a much better play in a possible 4-4 fit.Yes, and this ---allowing for responder to only have four of the minor---is what complicates the OP issue. When 5-4 reds is possible, opener must be able to bid 4NT with 2-3. We simplify the strain issue by opener just bidding 4H if hearts are agreed, and letting responder go forth if she wants to; offsuit cues agree diamonds. The problem with either/or is that opener cannot cue hearts later if the strain should be diamonds. Makes life simpler, if not optimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Why not GWTP and just play GF transfers?Because:- I'm trying to make a small unintrusive improvement rather than a large-scale change.- I'm trying to solve the same problem for similar sequences where responder shows 4M-5m. These usually end with bidding the major.- For ease of memory, I want to play the same methods after a 2NT opening and a natural 2NT overcall (even though theoretically it's better to play two different schemes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 If opener cue bids they have diamonds. Otherwise they bid either 4♥ or 4NT. Since opener is narrowly limited in strength and didn't super accept they won't often have a hand with hearts that really has to cue bid. And you will have the big advantage of always knowing what trumps are. If opener does happen to have a hand that has really improved, e.g. Axx AKx KQJ Axxx they can bid 5♥. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 In a sequence like2NT-3♦3♥-4♦I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract. Has anyone got any better methods? Surely 4♠ = slam interest in hearts,5♣ = slam interest in diamondsis better than muddled cues? Cheapest cue = slam interest in the major is the natural agreement to make, as after 2N 3D 3H 4C it is the only logical one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Surely 4♠ = slam interest in hearts,5♣ = slam interest in diamondsis better than muddled cues? Cheapest cue = slam interest in the major is the natural agreement to make, as after 2N 3D 3H 4C it is the only logical one.I think I prefer "cheaper cue = slam interest in the next suit above that in rotation", because that balances the space more evenly between the two sequences. For example, with hearts and diamonds it gives us at least one cheap cue-bid in each sequence. It also works better with our 4M-5m sequences. For example, when responder has shown diamonds and spades we're at the 4♠ level, so we would want 5♣ to agree diamonds. And it covers the auctions where responder shows both minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Another possibility is to play the cheaper unbid suit (by opener) as two-suits Keycard. Is that a good idea? It seems helpful to have the player doing the asking know what trumps are, and knowing more about the location of the partnership's honours. Also, opener can delay a decision about trumps until he knows which queens we have. The obvious disadvantage is that opener doesn't know how strong responder is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Actually, why is opener even allowed to go beyond 4♥ in your original sequence? When did responder promise slam interest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Actually, why is opener even allowed to go beyond 4♥ in your original sequence? When did responder promise slam interest?Are you saying the 4D was a pointless noise requiring opener to bid 4H, or are you saying 4D was telling opener he can pass or correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Actually, why is opener even allowed to go beyond 4♥ in your original sequence? When did responder promise slam interest?I think introducing a minor should show slam interest. There isn't enough space to cater for the small set of hands where responder doesn't have slam interest, doesn't want to play 3NT, and thinks that 5♦ will play better than a 5-2 heart fit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 When I played with Steve Weinstein, he also suggested that 4N should not be a natural bid, with a bad hand you just go back to 4H and play the 5-2. This might make it harder for responder if he has a slam force but pick a slam or w/e will always be there. In those cases, if there is a bid under 4M it is slam try in that major. First step over 4M is keycard in the minor. Next step keycard for major. Remaining step if exists slam try in minor. EG. 2N 3H3S 4D 4H=slam try in major, 4S=sign off, 4N=keycard diamonds, 5C Keycard in spades. 5D=minimum but obv a diamond fit. 2N 3H3S 4C 4D=slam try in spades, 4H=keycard in clubs, 4S=signoff, 4N=KC spades 5C=min with club fit 2N 3D3H 4C 4D=slam try in hearts, 4H=signoff, 4S=keycard clubs, 4N=keycard hearts, 5C=min with club fit 2N 3D3H 4D 4S=keycard diamonds 4N=keycard hearts, 5C=slam try diamonds 5D=min with diamond fit Now you can all laugh how keycard obsessed americans are and I doubt it is a gnasher style method but you always have plenty of room to keycard and stop/try for 7 (the keycard ask by the 2n opener forces to slam opposite 2 with the queen in all cases I think which is obviouly plenty opposite a 2N opener who is keycarding). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 One solution is to play transfers on the previous round. 2NT - 3♦; 3♥==3♠ = cog (nat 3NT) or clubs or strong one-suited slam try3NT = 4 spades, non-forcing4♣ = diamonds4♦ = 5-5 majors4♥ = mild slam try After 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠==3NT = 2 hearts (now 4♣ = 4 clubs; 4♦ = 5 clubs; 4♥ = strong slam try4♣ = 3+ hearts, 4+ clubs4♦ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, good hand for slam4♥ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, bad hand for slam You do need an alternative route for showing 5♥4♠ and slam interest if you were previously using 3♦->3♠ for this but that is not a problem in most systems. I also play this with Bob but in the context of a non puppet system (so smolen) so we just play: 2N 3D3H 3S=clubs, 4C=diamonds, not needing anything for 5H and 4S. This alleviates some of these problems, especially over hearts and diamonds which is the least room auction, and also allows for playing in 3N opposite hearts and clubs which is nice. Seems like a no brainer to play this unless you do something else very useful with your 3D 3H 3S (I have heard of some people playing that it shows a 4 card minor with 4m direct showing 5 which also seems very good). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Now you can all laugh how keycard obsessed americans are and I doubt it is a gnasher style methodI think a Keycard-based approach is sensible in a cramped auction like this. There isn't enough space to exchange information about all three of overall strength/suitability, honour-card location, and Keycards, so something has to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Seems like a no brainer to play this unless you do something else very useful with your 3D 3H 3SCatch22 and I use that as showing four hearts, so that we can play 3♣ as showing both majors, so that we can avoid giving away information about opener's hand unnecessarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Andy... do you have an example hand ? ( Opener/Responder ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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