ATB- imps

[manudude03]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqjt4haj73dtc84&n=s98652hk6da84ca95&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2s3d4dp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

[PhilKing]

I don't care for the initial double, but I still give North 100%. The hand was way too strong for 2♠, which makes the sign-off even more shocking. Did they want another ace?

 

South only just had a slam try.

[broze]

To answer in full I would want to know how the partnership would play the 2♦ cuebid in response to a takeout double but in any case I think to bid a non-forcing 2♠ with the North hand is ludicrous. I would certainly cuebid. Even given the 2♠ bid, after South makes a slam try how could he possibly be any better!?

 

Saying that perhaps South is worth one more try over 4♠ anyway, perhaps 5♥ showing first round control.

 

95% North, 5% South.

[bigbenvic]

Norths 2 bid may be short sighted but I think his 4 bid is awful.

 

Souths hand is very good but if North has soft values for 2♠ then they are off 2 tops before they start. 4♦ should wake north into looking at his 5 controls inc 1 in every suit bar trumps and he should bid 5♠ to say Hey I've got lots of stuff but am terrified about trumps!

 

South can smile and bid 6 with his better than average trump support!

[Lord Molyb]

whoops didn't see the king of hearts, change my vote to 100% north

[JLOGIC]

North is one of the worst bridge players of all time.

 

I personally like souths double but I'm sure many won't, but it's irrelevant.

[manudude03]

This was a bit of a sanity check for me, I was South here. I'm kinda forced to double by system (partner is one of those "an overcall denies an opening hand" guys- got us into trouble on another board). I had to post this when both partner and an expert East said I should just be asking for aces.

[neilkaz]

North made two clear underbids with his hand and gets 100% of the blame.

 

"(partner is one of those "an overcall denies an opening hand" guys)"..personally I find it very difficult to play opposite that type of partner.

 

The auction may be salvaged if North simply cooperates after 4D and cue-bids 4H.

[ahydra]

North is one of the worst bridge players of all time.

 

While you have a point, I think one ought to be careful to avoid insulting people... these fora are meant to be about helping people to learn.

 

I think the South hand is worth a X-then-bid - game has play opposite very little opposite, and X-then-bid isn't GF.

 

But this isn't as easy as it looks for some reason...

 

(1D)-X-(p)-2NT (10-12 BAL)

(3D)-4D-(p)-4S [3S by South here doesn't sound like a good hand, merely choice of games. In fact, after a natural NT response how does a TOXer show the big hand type?]

(p)-???

 

I guess South can just ask for aces here but you'd hate to be off two cashing clubs. So perhaps 5H - but that runs the risk of North passing?!

 

ahydra

[JLOGIC]

While you have a point, I think one ought to be careful to avoid insulting people... these fora are meant to be about helping people to learn.

 

 

Absolutely, I was drunk and using hyperbole to make a point, apologies. Hopefully whoever was north does not read this forum.

[ArtK78]

While you have a point, I think one ought to be careful to avoid insulting people... these fora are meant to be about helping people to learn.

 

I think the South hand is worth a X-then-bid - game has play opposite very little opposite, and X-then-bid isn't GF.

 

But this isn't as easy as it looks for some reason...

 

(1D)-X-(p)-2NT (10-12 BAL)

(3D)-4D-(p)-4S [3S by South here doesn't sound like a good hand, merely choice of games. In fact, after a natural NT response how does a TOXer show the big hand type?]

(p)-???

 

I guess South can just ask for aces here but you'd hate to be off two cashing clubs. So perhaps 5H - but that runs the risk of North passing?!

 

ahydra

Why would you want to describe the North hand as 10-12 balanced when you have 5 spades and three controls? Opposite a known fit (or, if there is no fit, a self sufficient suit and a strong hand) the North hand would never want to play in notrump, so I don't see why one should suggest it.

 

Justin's appraisal of North's lack of bridge ability may be a little extreme, but the mere 2♠ call with what is really a game forcing hand and the signoff after partner's slam try were extremely wimpy calls.

 

EDIT: "Never", as in "the North hand would never want to play in notrump," is also a bit extreme, but it would never occur to me to view the North hand as wanting to steer the partnership to a notrump contract opposite a takeout double.

[ahydra]

A reasonable point, ArtK78 - in which case I might start with 2D (artificial force) and, after hearing 3S from partner, check the backs of the cards & jump in my racecar.

 

ahydra

[billw55]

This was a bit of a sanity check for me, I was South here. I'm kinda forced to double by system (partner is one of those "an overcall denies an opening hand" guys- got us into trouble on another board). I had to post this when both partner and an expert East said I should just be asking for aces.

Oh really. And what were they planning to bid if partner showed one ace?

[PhilKing]

Oh really. And what were they planning to bid if partner showed one ace?

 

If East is really an expert, I presume he intends to bid six if that happens to make, but stop in five otherwise. B-)

[manudude03]

Oh really. And what were they planning to bid if partner showed one ace?

I did bring up that point, and they said sign off (infact, partner said sign off in 4S). It's a little funny when I could be cold for slam opposite 1 ace, and not even make 11 opposite 2 (xxxx xxx AJ AJx?)

[dustinst22]

Hopefully whoever was north does not read this forum.

 

Haha awesome.

 

I'm confused, it seems pretty clear/obvious that North is to blame. Is there really even a question about it? I thought these "assign the blame" questions were supposed to at least be some shade of gray. Or maybe it was just posted to show his partner how silly his bidding was/

[CSGibson]

If I had a partner that bid like North then had the temerity to criticize my own auction as the reason we didn't get to slam, I'd stop playing with them - they obviously don't "get it" on many different levels.

[akwoo]

This was a bit of a sanity check for me, I was South here. I'm kinda forced to double by system (partner is one of those "an overcall denies an opening hand" guys- got us into trouble on another board). I had to post this when both partner and an expert East said I should just be asking for aces.

 

I have to say I am surprised partner complained. Someone with that degree of failure to evaluate his hand usually would think that, since you only had 26hcp combined, you shouldn't be in slam.

 

Is Expert East a pro? I can imagine someone used to having partners who can't evaluate their hand wanting to bid 4n there.

[manudude03]

Not a pro, "expert" here is really just a life master who isn't completely clueless.

[rmnka447]

100% North.

 

11 HCP, 2 1/2 QTs, and a 5 card major looks like an opener to me. You could quibble, perhaps, about the hand having 8 losers. With partner doubling and showing opening values, North's first responsiblity is to alert his partner that game is probable. In the US, that would be done with an immediate 2 ♦ cue bid.

 

I don't see any problem with South's double. South has a 5 loser hand, a solid ♠ suit, and even holds a 4 card ♥ suit to 2 honors. If South bids 1 ♠, it may be impossible to ever convince North that the hand is as strong as it is later in the auction.

 

After the 2 ♦ cue, South can jump to 3 ♠ to show a big ♠ hand. Provided North doesn't faint, it should be pretty easy to get to slam after that.

[Finch]

We're all agreed that signing off over 4D was a very poor choice, North has a slam drive now.

But I don't mind the 2S bid on the first round so much. If you are in the 'double shows an opening hand with shortage in the opponent's suit and 4-4 in the majors' camp, then, yes, it's a game force.

However, many people now would double 1D on, say, AQx Qxxx xxx KQx. If you are a 'get in the auction at all costs' doubler, then 2S is plenty.

[the hog]

I really dislike the x by St, but as stated above, that is irrelevant. Nth underbid the hand badly the first time and ridiculously the second time. Nth 100%

[Trinidad]

The problem is caused by North's choice of system. If South needs to double on every opening hand that is not a 1NT overcall, then North doesn't know that there is a spade fit. If South has a minimum opening with 5 hearts (e.g. ♠A♥Axxxx♦KJx♣Jxxx, where everybody else would overcall 1♥), South needs to double. Opposite such a hand 2♠ is indeed plenty enough.

 

The next problem arrives in the next round. North will think: "What the *&%$^$@ is 4♦?". He interprets it as a GF hand without direction -not as a slam try in spades, because the fit was not known- and he shows the fifth spade by bidding 4♠, hoping that there is a 5-3 fit.

 

So, the cause of the problem is that North plays an LOL system and South plays a system for players who understand bidding. You don't get good results by playing two different systems. If South would have been a genuine pro (the kind of player that gets paid to play well with LOLs) he would have played North's system. That means he would not have bid 4♦, he would have bid 5♠. There is no guarantee that North would have bid the slam (scary without asking for aces), but that would have been the best shot.

 

So, North is 100% to blame for refusing to learn what a take-out double and an overcall show. South could have done better if he would have fully understood the implications of North's horrible system. But I think it is cruel to first ask South to play such a system and then blame him when this system causes a bad result.

 

I hope South got paid very well.

 

Rik