Catchall Opener Rebids in 2/1

[pbleighton]

f I bid 1s, partner responds 1nt, and I have 5-1-4-3, with 4 low diamonds and 3 low clubs, is the 2 club bid considered a catchall so that it is preferable to bid that (which won't be taken seriously) versus 2d with a nothing suit?

Also, if I bid 1s, partner responds 2c, and I have 5-1-4-3, with 4 low diamonds and 3 low clubs, is a 2nt bid OK as catchall, or do I bid the diamonds.

I am new to 2/1, and there seems to be many different opinions on many subjects (see the Which 2/1? thread),

so I am wondering:

1) What do you think - not just limited to specific situations I described.

2) Is there a standard which 80% plus of 2/1 players subscibe to?

While I am at it, how do you show extra values (as opener and/or responder) when a reverse isn't possible,

and "slow arrival" can be confused with still looking for a trump fit?

[pbleighton]

I forgot to say - my 5 card spade suit is too weak to rebid - so put some points in the 3 card club suit.

[bglover]

Some play (myself included) that after a 1M-1nt response by partner you rebid 2c whenever you lack a second 4 card suit..So if your distribution is 5332 you rebid 2C because 2D promises 4 or more diamonds and you aren't allowed to rebid your 5 card major here.

 

The reasoning is that if partner's suit is diamonds he will now have the chance to bid it and it will probably be your best fit. If partner has a good hand with clubs he is now required to have 5 pieces to make a club raise to protect a possible 5-2 fit.

 

In the situation where partner responds 2D or 2C over 1M, I always raise partner with 3 pieces if I do not have a six card major and do not have the other suits stopped (always rebid 2nt if you can). It is the least offensive of your other choices (avoid bidding a new 4 card suit, unless you are 5-4 in spades and hearts, in which case you must show the hearts now).

 

Partner now knows that we lack a stopper for NT and can either raise my major, show the a stopper, or rebid 3nt.

 

As to the situation where you have extra values but cannot reverse, the simple solution to that is to cue bid above game after you have found a fit. So, if the bidding goes 1s-2c-2d-4s you now would bid your cheapest ace... you have agreed on spades as your suit so a bid at the 5 level shows more than a minimum and interest in slam opposite partner's known minimum. Also, you may want to look at Serious 3nt for auctions that involve either limit or bergen type raises that keep the bidding at the 3 level and have a game force (see BBO notes).

[easy]

f I bid 1s, partner responds 1nt, and I have 5-1-4-3, with 4 low diamonds and 3 low clubs, is the 2 club bid considered a catchall so that it is preferable to bid that (which won't be taken seriously) versus 2d with a nothing suit?

Also, if I bid 1s, partner responds 2c, and I have 5-1-4-3, with 4 low diamonds and 3 low clubs, is a 2nt bid OK as catchall, or do I bid the diamonds.

I am new to 2/1, and there seems to be many different opinions on many subjects (see the Which 2/1? thread),

so I am wondering:

1) What do you think - not just limited to specific situations I described.

2) Is there a standard which 80% plus of 2/1 players subscibe to?

While I am at it, how do you show extra values (as opener and/or responder) when a reverse isn't possible,

and "slow arrival" can be confused with still looking for a trump fit?

 

Welcome to the forum :)

 

2/1 is very similar to sayc. The major difference is that a non jump bid at the 2 level creates a game force and therefore reduces some of the judgement situations that exist in sayc. In addition the forcing nt (over 1Major)is used to handle all of the non forcing to game hands with no known fit.

 

However just like in any other natural system both partners are required to describe their hands as closely as possible. Thus in both of your examples a rebid of 2d is the best description of your hand. We try hard not to bid nt with singletons.....especially in unbid suits.

 

Is there a std 2/1 . Not really. some play 2/1 100% forcing to game , others play it "almost" forcing to game. Some play that reverses still apply after 2/1 others say reverses arnt needed. Some play 2/1 over a major and not over 1D.

 

No matter which form of 2/1 u learn  you can easily adapt to another. but first you must learn some version of 2/1. This is really not a daunting task. As i said it is similar to SAYC. I wont recommend any particular style (but yes i have my favorite) Max Hardy and Mike Lawrence, r the 2 most popular 2/1 authors.

[inquiry]

If I have 5-1-4-3, over 1M - 1NT (forcing) I sometimes rebid 2D and sometimes 2C. In your example, if my clubs include some honors and my diamonds are broke, I bid 2C.

 

Reverse my minors, so I am 5-1-3-4 with honors in diamonds and junk in clubs, I rebid clubs almost all the time, unless I have something like AQT or better in diamonds and a strong hand for the 2 level rebid (that is strong spades so I can stand a 2-card preference to spades when partner has clubs.

 

I would like to address 2over1's comments that with 5-3-3-2 he and many rebid 2C so that 2D promises at least 4. This certainly solves one problem but introduces another. I prefer to rebid 2D on such hands.  

[bglover]

Well, my treatment is only one... I was trying to give the original poster one accepted method for handling the described hands, but did not mean for it be the ONLY treatment (altho it is a common one).

 

The advantage is that when you play in diamonds it's almost always in a decent fit. Partner should strive not to pass 2C almost always without 5 cards in that suit. If he has five diamonds he should return to the major I opened with 2 card support. With 6 diamonds bid that suit... the worst being a possible 6-1 fit.

 

I realize there are many different 2/1 structures, and I am not advocating this one over any others... it is just the one I am most comfortable with as it usually avoids 2 level disasters, but then it isn't perfect, nor did I claim it was.

 

It's Mike Lawrence's treatment and I've used it for many years now so I am comfortable with it. If you like another treatment, that's fine, but I am sure it has its own set of flaws for 2 level sign offs (the basic weakness in any 2/1 system).

[pbleighton]

Thanks to all for the variety of opinions - it has been informative. For now, I think I will stick with my Standard practice of almost always bidding shape (in these cases 2d), but will keep an open mind for the future!

I have 2 questions regarding 2over1's answer (for 2over1 or anyone else)

1) Raising to 3c with 3 over partner's response of 2c - do you require an honor?  Does your partnership then heavily discount both the 2c bid and the response, and use it as information for a nt contract.

2) You suggestion of a control showing cuebid to show strength works fine with big hands (19+ revalued points), but what about 16-18, in cases where partner's strength is undisclosed by the bidding - he may have a dead minimum (no slam without shortness), or maybe 17+ (good prospects).  The way I have understood control showing cue bidding is that it is forcing on partner to show a control (including second round control, if that's all you have), and partner isn't allowed to retreat to trumps because of strength, but only because of no controls.  Is this right, and/or is it different in 2/1 versus Standard. If right, what do you do with 16 points (and no known shortness in either hand), in the auctions where all you know about partner is that he has 13 plus.

I am committed to learning and playing 2/1, and am studying (25 Steps to 2/1, by Paul Thurston), but I haven't read anything there or elsewhere which addresses the issue of what I perceive (as a beginner in 2/1) to be it's relative weakness versus Standard in allowing the opener or resonder to show more than minimum strength in as many auctions as they can in Standard.

I realize that the lack of jump raises conserves bidding space, and the low-level force avoids contorting auctions for fear of missing game, but it seems to me to be nonetheless a weakness.  Does anyone have thoughts/solutions on this?

[inquiry]

Hi pbleighton

 

Oh boy, have you opened up a can of worms with you question about cue-bidding. But first let me handle the simpliest question first. Does the raise 1M-1N-2m-3m show an honor?

 

First off, it almost always shows a singleton or shorter in the first M. Since 2m doesn't even promise a 4 card suit (unless you play like 2over1 and m=diamonds). So it is hard to imagine a hand a where you don't want to pass with a m fit without an honor(s) in the suit, if you had enough to want to make another bid and no honors, given the expected shortness in M you would bid 2NT not 3m.

 

 

IF M was hearts, you have an easy way to show "extra values" and a fit. The bidding would go...

1H-1NT

2m-2S

 

Where 2S shows very good 5 card fit for m. This is not available after 1S-1NT.

 

I also play 2NT by the 1NT bidder as showing "extra values". If partner bids something that you really like,

 

Now for the real fun... where responder uses a 2-over-1 game force bid. And the cue-bidding starts. You worried about a potential weakness. You said

The way I have understood control showing cue bidding is that it is forcing on partner to show a control (including second round control, if that's all you have), and partner isn't allowed to retreat to trumps because of strength, but only because of no controls.  

 

Many 2over-1 players play a convention known as "Serious 3NT" to deal with just this situation. The BBO Advanced system notes, available on line at the BBO playing site, has a great write up of this convention. Perhpas it could be improved by reversing the meaning of 3NT and 3S bid on some auctions, but leaving that aside for now, this convention is designed to fit your situation. Once either partner starts cue-bidding after a major fit has been found, both must cue-bid their controls up the line (bidding their cheapest first or second round controls). In the process, if someone bids 3NT he is "serious" about the slam try. So for instance on this auction

 

1H-2C

2D-3H

3N

 

The 3N bidder a) doesn't have SA or SK or singleton or void, but is serious about a possible slam. Of course if his partner lacks a control in spades, he will bid 4H right now (off 2 or more spades, so no slam).

[bglover]

Well, remember the sequence I gave you promised a minimum on responder's hand to start..and also no shortness as responder would splinter (mini-splinters are a very important part of 2/1 and are underused in my estimation) rather than bid game directly. Ergo, the opener has a lot of information before making his cue bid.

 

In other words, opener has to use GOOD judgment before making a cue bid in this type of auction. He should not be imagining a "magic" fit that could envision slam in partner's known 13 point, no singleton, hand.

 

Most 16 point openings that do not contain a singleton or void should NOT be moving towards slam. Conversely, an 18 point hand with xxx in one suit must be very cautious as well... the probability of 2 losers in that suit is high even opposite an opening hand if that is an unbid suit.

 

I know agressive players who automatically cue bid with all 17 plus hands in this situation and I do not agree. You've had the chance to garner information from partner, and if you can see a flaw based on the bidding, why risk the 5 level (this actually happened to me yesterday on a hand that was cold for 4 but had no chance at 5).

 

So, my answer to you is to use judgment and not be too reliant solely on point count. Slams are usually more distribution-oriented than HCP oriented (and if you have those kinds of rocks you know it pretty fast..).

[pbleighton]

To 2Over1's latest regarding point count and slams:

I agree entirely that if I have 16 points with no indication (or denial) from partner that he has a more than minimum hand and/or distribution, that moving towards slam is unwise, and I wouldn't do it.

 

What I have been trying to get is:

Are there methods (apart from slow arrival) which will allow either the responder or the opener to show a good, but not maximum, hand, as would (in Standard) a jump rebid of own or resonder's suit (16-18), or a jump shift by the responder (17+).  If there aren't, I can live with it, because of the advantages of 2/1.  But if there are, I'd like to know about them.  This gets to my question - if I have 16-17 and I know partner does, then I am interested. Is ther a way for partner to communicate this?

 

In other words, this is a "conversion" question from a Standard bidder, who senses that something is taken away, while (more) is being added.

[keylime]

Forcing NT responses are a necessary part of 2/1 because it allows you to play 2 of a minor/major without committing to a game-force. I personally would rebid 2C on any hand with 5 spades, and no 4 card suit with 3C (otherwise 2D). However if the spades are excellent, then 2S is not a bad call to make.

[bglover]

OK, we are starting to zoom in on the problem here.. you do not fully grasp slow and fast arrival auctions.

 

The faster responder bids to game, the LESS he has in slam interest.. This can be taken to mean his hand is relatively flat and/or is not rich in controls. Thus, the slow approach infers parther has more to show you along the way...

 

For example:

 

1h-2d (GF)-2h-3h means PARTNER, I HAVE UNDISCLOSED ASSETS. It also implies that responder has more than 13 or 14 points for his original bid.

 

Let's assume opener simply rebids 4hts... that is not sign off.. but it does imply that he doesnt hold the Ace of clubs (he would cue bid it) and he may have the ace of diamonds (since we are in a game force and diamonds have been bid, no need to cue bid this card with a tame hand).

 

Responder does NOT have to pass and SHOULD NOT if he holds the ace of clubs and additional cards of interest... Partner may still have the ace of spades and a minimal hand. His bid of 4 hts was only showing minimal values and probably relatively square shape (5332 or 5422).

 

Knowing this information, responder needs to reevaluate his holdings. Does he have enough 1st and/or 2d round controls to make slam opposite a relatively shapelss hand? Perhaps a few controls but long, strong diamonds (most 30 point slams are double fits with the 2d suit providing sufficient discards). Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that responder holds the ace of clubs and decent long diamonds, but not the ace of spades (which can still be in opener's hand don't forget).

 

He now bids 5c. If opener is holding the spade ace he can move on to 6... if not he rebids 5 hts knowing they are off 2 top tricks in spades (unless of course responder has that suit covered, in which case the bidding may not end).

 

There are other ways to ask about 2 quick losers in competitive auctions as well. If the auction goes 1s- (2c) -3c (cue bid by responder)-p-5s (opener), opener is saying I have 2 quick losers in clubs but I can cover everything else opposite your limit raise. Bid 6 if you dont have 2 quick losers in that suit too.

 

This has gone on a tad long so I'll stop here... hope that it helps.

[inquiry]

Ok. Time for me to disagree with steve again (but then I play Serious 3NT). On the following auction he said:

 

 

"1h-2d (GF)-2h-3h means PARTNER, I HAVE UNDISCLOSED

ASSETS. It also implies that responder has more than

13 or 14 points for his original bid.  Let's assume opener

simply rebids 4hts... that is not sign off.. but it does

imply that he doesnt hold the Ace of clubs (he would cue

bid it) and he may have the Ace of diamonds (since we

are in a game force and diamonds have been bid, no need

to cue bid this card with a tame hand)."

 

This misses the entire point of your question, and the advantages of Serious 3NT. Playing 2/1 Responder couldn't jump to 3D with a good hand (maybe bergen, maybe WJS), so he was forced to bid 2D (GF). So while 3H showed more than minimum, it could just a little more, or a heck of a lot more. Opener has to co-operate over 3H EVEN THOUGH north may have no real slam ambition himself when he bid 3H. Here is were serious 3NT comes into play. Let's assume that North has a spade control. He will bid 3S (king, ace, singleton, or void will do), rather or not he himself has serious slam ambition. Lacking a spade control, south has to ask himself if he has any slam ambition. If South is serious about trying for slam, he will bid 3NT (only convying he is interested in continuing to look for slam). Is Opener is not all that excited about trying for slam, and he lacks a control in Spades, he looks at his club suit. Does he have a control, if so he bids it. IF not, well, you got the idea by now (I play 4D on this auction as Last Train to Clarksville...yet anohter convention for which I will not try to explain here).

 

If opener bids 4C (by passing Serious 3NT) a slightly more than minimum 2D bidder will signoff even with a control in spades, AND IMPORTANTLY, a responder with REMARKABLY strong slam ambition but no spade control will sign off too.

 

Now, lets assume Opener does have a spade control and bids it. Responder will bid 3NT if he is interested in making a slam try, but will cue bid a club or diamond control (well not Diamond if you play LTTC). Here, opener with a minimum hearing his partner not make a serious 3NT bid, will sign off regardless what cue-bid responder makes.

 

The Serious 3NT convention was invented to handle exactly the situtation you are worried about pbleighton, and you must be a serious bidding student to even have found and worried about how to deal with these situations.  Fell free to send me private messages if you want to explore this convention more. And I can point you to places where you can read more about it. As an aside, I am very found of the principle of fast arrival, and use it on a lot of auction. But I have a specific meaning for 1H-2D-any simple rebid-4H. dealing specifically with diamond and heart honors and legth and denying honors in the other suits.

[keylime]

Serious 3NT -- now we're cooking with kerosene baby!! This treatment is growing more and more popular, especially in strong/forcing club systems, and with pairs that use some G/F raise (normally 2NT).

 

Using simple Jacoby 2NT as the G/F is not enough. This treatment loses out on the ability of responder to ask opener for specifics of their hand (shortages WITH range concurrently). Furthermore many players overuse this treatment when their hands can be better expressed through a pudding raise (bidding a 2/1 then jumping into game to show values in the trump and response suit only).

 

I personally use Serious 3NT coupled with a modified form of Martel-Stansby 2NT G/F raise. If desired I'll be quite happy to post that scheme, which I feel has significant merit. :)

[bglover]

I was trying to construct a simple example of 2/1 auctions and illustrate how the principle of fast vs. slow arrival works.

 

If you read my 1st post I did mention Serious 3nt as a way to explore for slam... BUT in the example I constructed I did not intend for that convention to be used... Rather, it was an example of basic 2/1 bidding and how to show a "good" hand by responder vs. an average hand.

 

I suggest it be read in that light. And, given that, you will find it both accurate and informative as to how to show a better hand by resoinder... yes, there are other methods once you understand the basic prinicples involved.

[dageaux]

if you agree to play serious 3nt, it (and the bidding sequences when there is no serious slam interest by either pard) should be played everytime there is a game force auction in which at least an 8 card fit is known to exist

 

so while fast arrival (1s/2c/2d/4s) has merit, it is (imo) not the right way to go... a simple raise to 3s allows opener to bid 3nt with slam interest... jumping to 4s pushes the auction too high too fast with no real upside... again this is just my opinion

[bglover]

I do need to correct something in my example... Opener cannot have the Ace of spades but he can have king... when he rebids 4h over 3hts he cannot have the ace, or else he would cue bid it even with a minimal hand.

[Guest]

Hi Pbleighton,

May I suggest that you do not consider fast/slow arrival to differentiate between hand strengths. The reason is as follows:

The major advantage of a well designed 2/1 system is that the 2/1 bid shoud "carry real weight", by that I mean be a decent suit, not just qxxx and out for example. This has the following implications for the system -

1). 1M 2NT should show 13-15 balanced with no good 5 card suit to bid. (Find some other method for your M suit raises! Fred has some excellent notes available on BBO)

 

2) 1S 2C 2D 4S is now what is called a "picture bid". This means you have the values for game, but all your controls are in C and S. The opening bidder can now evaluate his hand and fitting honors.

 

OK, so how do you show a strong hand. Read twooverone's comments re Serious 3NT.

An auction such as

1S 2C 2D 2S  shows just a doubleton S maybe 3 bad, and you are exploring the best game wheras

1S 2C 2D 3S does NOT necessarily show extra values, but does show 3, maybe even 4, good S support.

Opener now bids 3NT - Serious- to show extra values and start cue bidding. A 4C bid for example would just show minimum values and be a "courtesy cue" in case responder has slam interest.

 

There is much more to it of course, and I understand the concepts are not easy for a beginning player. However a system designed around these principles is a far better designed and workable one than other versions of 2/1 IMHO.

 

I have played 2/1 over the past 12 months and the above is a result of a lot of experimentation as to what works and what doesn't in expert competition.

 

With regard to your first question as to what you should rebid holding a 5143 shape, I would ALWAYS bid 2D on this. (I would bid 3D GF if I held about 19+ pts. )Responder will strive to bid over 2D with any sort of decent hand - about 8+ and a fit. To raise does not necessarily show an hon. There are many theories and gadgets available to show differing types of raises; in time you may want to adopt some of these.

 

Ron