4th Seat T/O Double versus Sandwich NT

[32519]

You are the player sitting in 4th seat, and witness an auction such as this one -

1♣-(P)-1♥-?

You have a biddable hand containing the two unbid suits and some values.

 

So here's the question(s):

1. When do you make a t/o X for the two unbid suits?

2. When do you make a Sandwich NT overcall for the two unbid suits?

[Antrax]

Personally, as a passed hand (don't play Sandwich NT otherwise), X shows more defense than 1NT shows less shape than 2NT. Warning: might not be optimal.

[Siegmund]

My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak, 2NT with a weak 5-5, and double with 4-4s of appropriate strength (and, as I mentioned in another thread, allow our side to play in clubs after the double.)

[aguahombre]

My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak,

How does that work out in practice ---bypassing the spade suit yet showing exactly four of them when weak?

[32519]

Personally, as a passed hand (don't play Sandwich NT otherwise), X shows more defense than 1NT shows less shape than 2NT. Warning: might not be optimal.

:blink: Huh?

Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?

[32519]

My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak, 2NT with a weak 5-5, and double with 4-4s of appropriate strength (and, as I mentioned in another thread, allow our side to play in clubs after the double.)

This can work. To summarise how I understand this:

1. Double = 4/4 in the two unbid suits

2. 1NT = 4-cards in the other major and 5-cards in the other minor

3. 2NT = 5/5 in the two unbid suits

 

With 5-cards in the other major and 4 in the other minor you just make a normal overcall. The actual length in the unbid minor is supressed, but that's ok. You've managed to get a bid in consuming some of the opponents bidding space.

[aguahombre]

:blink: Huh?

Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?

Antrax is describing his passed-hand methods, because his (our) unpassed-hand methods call for a strong-balanced sandwich position notrump. In that context, what he said was clear. Double is less distributional than cue or 2nt.

[Vampyr]

2. When do you make a Sandwich NT overcall for the two unbid suits?

 

Never (as an unpassed hand). I think that this is a significantly majority viewpoint.

[awm]

I like double as a sound takeout of responder's suit, with 1nt being a lighter takeout for the unbids.

[Antrax]

:blink: Huh?

Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?

Sorry, I thought it was clear.

0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:

1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.

2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.

In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.

[32519]

Antrax is describing his passed-hand methods, because his (our) unpassed-hand methods call for a strong-balanced sandwich position notrump. In that context, what he said was clear. Double is less distributional than cue or 2nt.

What do you mean by a strong-balanced sandwich position? How strong is "strong?" And if you are strong why did you pass initially? Where and how does the Michaels/Unusual 2NT combination fit into your bidding agreements if you bid this way?

[32519]

Never (as an unpassed hand). I think that this is a significantly majority viewpoint.

So then I must assume that the significant majority viewpoint will always make a t/o X for the two unbid suits. Does that mean we can discard the sandwich NT bid to the junk pile along with my other pet hates?

[32519]

Sorry, I thought it was clear.

0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:

1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.

2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.

In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.

See my reply to aguahombre.

[Antrax]

(1x)-p-(1y)-

1NT is our NT overcall, so 15(+)-18, expected to stop both suits (but if x is a minor, might just have length).

2y is natural, so 5+ decent suit.

2x is an ill-defined "general force". Probably should be something else. Undiscussed by a passed hand.

[aguahombre]

What do you mean by a strong-balanced sandwich position? How strong is "strong?" And if you are strong why did you pass initially? Where and how does the Michaels/Unusual 2NT combination fit into your bidding agreements if you bid this way?

Unpassed hands have not passed originally. I think I shall bow out.

[PhilKing]

Does that mean we can discard the sandwich NT bid to the junk pile along with my other pet hates?

 

Technically, discarded sandwiches should be recycled rather than put on the junk pile.

[sfi]

Technically, discarded sandwiches should be recycled rather than put on the junk pile.

 

Composting worms and chickens appreciate them, so that would be pet likes rather than pet hates.

[PhilKing]

Composting worms and chickens appreciate them, so that would be pet likes rather than pet hates.

 

I wouldn't give a chicken a chicken sandwich, but that's just me.

[sfi]

I wouldn't give a chicken a chicken sandwich, but that's just me.

 

True enough - they might get ideas.

[Siegmund]

How does that work out in practice ---bypassing the spade suit yet showing exactly four of them when weak?

 

Better than overcalling 2 of a minor and losing the major forever does. Not necessarily better than doubling - but the auction is never (or almost never, depending on opponents' methods) ending in 1 of our major anyway, so the inability to stop in 1S isn't really a worry.

[Free]

In a more standard approach, 1NT typically shows a weaker hand than Dbl. But if you're going to play sandwich NT, you might as well distinguish in length and strength of the suits instead of general strength of the hand.

 

In 2 partnerships I play 2 completely different methods, and I'm actually quite happy with both of them. Only one of them uses sandwich NT:

Dbl = shows the non bid suits, equal length/strength

1NT = shows the non bid suits, lowest longer/better

2♣ = shows the non bid suits, highest longer/better

2♥ = natural

2NT = extreme hand with the non bid suits (55+)

 

If we have for example ♠65432 and ♦KQJT we consider this as equal strength, while ♠KQxxx ♦KQxx shows longer ♠.

[PhilKing]

With approximately 57 different ways of showing two suits, god forbid we should have a way of showing that one of them is clubs.

 

If one is prepared to give up a natural no trump, using it to show 5+♣ 4+OM makes a lot of sense. This would only apply versus a 2+ club or diamond suit, of course.

[1eyedjack]

Amesbury and Payne in their book TNT and Competitive Bidding recommended (as I recall) something along these lines:

X = 3-suiter short in opener

1N = 3-suiter short in responder (you could swap this with X if you want)

Cue bids, 2N - 2-suited in the other two suits, of progressively extreme shape.

 

The book is rather dated (20 years or so I expect by now), and I think probably written at a time when it was less flavour of the month to open on a 10 count and respond on 4.

 

Anyway, just throwing it into the mix. It does have some attractions in that it allows you additional hand types where you might actually wish to play in one of the opponents' suits.

[Winstonm]

There are so many ways to use these bids: 1C-P-1H then: 2C=4S/5D takeout, 2H-5S/4D takeout, double =4/4 takeout, and 1NT=5/5 takeout.

[aguahombre]

I believe the majority of posters like 1C-(P)-1H-(2H) to show a desire to play in 2H.