Lorenzo Lauria: The Problem is Me

[jillybean]

Rome (Italy), April 30th, 2013

Edited re copyright laws

 

http://neapolitanclub.altervista.org/eng/lorenzo-lauria-problem-is-me-interview.html

[glen]

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[diana_eva]

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Yeah, I was thinking the same when i read the interview here. Maybe better if JB edits the post to link to original article.

 

 

[JLOGIC]

I say this literally having the utmost respect and admiration for Lauria, but it seems like he is implying that the reason the US committee ruled against Monaco is bias against Europeans....as far as I know the team they ruled for had 3 Danes? I don't really get it.

[Codo]

I understood him different: I understood that the US is the only country where the committee had ruled against Monaco, all other countries have a different view on this appeal.

Maybe he focussed on the possibility of split scores, which is possible everywhere besides in America?

 

 

[Zelandakh]

I could not get the link to open so here is an alternative.

[gnasher]

I say this literally having the utmost respect and admiration for Lauria, but it seems like he is implying that the reason the US committee ruled against Monaco is bias against Europeans....as far as I know the team they ruled for had 3 Danes? I don't really get it.

His bridge certainly commands respect, but it's possible to be a world-class bridge player without really understanding the rules. In fact, it's quite common.

 

I don't know what he means by "I think the US is the only country left where these appeal committees exist." There are appeals committees all over the world.

 

At any national bridge event a committee will usually be composed of people from the host nation, because:

- There will be far more suitable local players than overseas visitors.

- The people appointing the committee generally know which local players to put on the committee, but they may not know which visiting players are suitable.

- Overseas visitors will generally be less willing to serve on the committee, because they have better things to do.

- Local players generally have a better understanding of local rules than visiting players.

 

This last point is particularly important in ACBL events, because the ACBL has elected to use Law 12C1e rather than 12c1c (ie there are no weighted scores in ACBL rulings). I wouldn't trust an Italian expert to make a 12c1e ruling correctly, because 12c1e hasn't applied in Italy since (I think) 1997.

[GreenMan]

Don't let's forget that the interview was conducted in Italian and translated by someone who is probably bilingual but not a professional translator, so we shouldn't read too much into the specific wording in the English version, esp. re appeals committees.

[jallerton]

His bridge certainly commands respect, but it's possible to be a world-class bridge player without really understanding the rules. In fact, it's quite common.

 

I don't know what he means by "I think the US is the only country left where these appeal committees exist." There are appeals committees all over the world.

 

At any national bridge event a committee will usually be composed of people from the host nation, because:

- There will be far more suitable local players than overseas visitors.

- The people appointing the committee generally know which local players to put on the committee, but they may not know which visiting players are suitable.

- Overseas visitors will generally be less willing to serve on the committee, because they have better things to do.

- Local players generally have a better understanding of local rules than visiting players.

 

This last point is particularly important in ACBL events, because the ACBL has elected to use Law 12C1e rather than 12c1c (ie there are no weighted scores in ACBL rulings). I wouldn't trust an Italian expert to make a 12c1e ruling correctly, because 12c1e hasn't applied in Italy since (I think) 1997.

 

The last point is only really relevant to the AC Chairman. You only need one person who understands the Laws fully, particularly in cases such as this one where the main issue is bridge judgement.

[paulg]

Don't let's forget that the interview was conducted in Italian and translated by someone who is probably bilingual but not a professional translator, so we shouldn't read too much into the specific wording in the English version, esp. re appeals committees.

I think she is pretty close to a professional translator, being an Italian academic who has spent the last few years in Scotland doing her PhD while trying to play bridge. Unlike many, not only is she finishing her PhD this month but she represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

[Zelandakh]

she, being an Italian academic, represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

Seems to say everything about modern international bridge, sadly.

[gnasher]

I think she is pretty close to a professional translator, being an Italian academic who has spent the last few years in Scotland doing her PhD while trying to play bridge. Unlike many, not only is she finishing her PhD this month but she represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

Does "unlike many" refer to completing her PhD, or representing Scotland? If the latter, I think you're on fairly thin ground.

[blackshoe]

The last point is only really relevant to the AC Chairman. You only need one person who understands the Laws fully, particularly in cases such as this one where the main issue is bridge judgement.

One of the functions of the TD is to explain the laws, when necessary, to the AC, so you don't really need anyone on the committee who understands them fully. Of course, somebody needs to ask the TD for explanations when needed. B-)

[Trinidad]

she, being an Italian academic, represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

Seems to say everything about modern international bridge, sadly.

I don't understand what you mean. What is sad about someone who works and lives in Scotland -for the purpose of working and living in Scotland- and thus has her home there to represent Scotland in her hobby?

 

This is quite different from someone who lives in say Italy or Norway who moves to some tiny country without a decent bridge team for the purpose of representing someone who pays them a lot of money in international bridge.

 

I am Dutch, married to a Finnish wife. I have lived in the USA, Sweden and currently live in The Netherlands. For my wife and me at the time that we live(d) there these countries were/are our homes and if we would be / would have been good enough, we would be / would have been proud to represent the country that we call(ed) home. Anybody in the street where we live would say that my wife's home is right here in our street. The same goes for her colleagues and our friends (whether from The Netherlands, Sweden, USA, Finland or other countries).

 

Though I live in The Netherlands, I am working for a German company, half of the time physically in Germany. (Don't ask how that works with taxes, etc. . I wouldn't recommend doing this.) It would never occur to me to represent Germany. I may spend a lot of time there, but I don't see it as my home.

 

Now, I understand that it is very difficult to describe "what people consider their home" legally water tight in a regulation in such a way that it is enforceable. But that doesn't mean that it is a bad moral principle to represent the country (or region or city or...) that you call home, just because you or your parents were born somewhere else.

 

Rik

[paulg]

Unlike many, not only is she finishing her PhD this month but she represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

Does "unlike many" refer to completing her PhD, or representing Scotland? If the latter, I think you're on fairly thin ground.

At least the top Scottish pairs compete in the trials for the Lady Milne :)

[paulg]

but she represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

Seems to say everything about modern international bridge, sadly.

It says nothing about modern international bridge. The Home Internationals are friendly events and are not considered representative events by the EBL or WBF. Living in one of the home nations for two years is sufficient to play for them, although each country may have its own additional requirements.

As it happens it is possible to be eligible for Scotland for the Home Internationals and not for the European Team Championships, and vice versa. In fact last year there were two such players. Bit of a nightmare for the selectors.

[cherdano]

I think she is pretty close to a professional translator, being an Italian academic who has spent the last few years in Scotland doing her PhD while trying to play bridge. Unlike many, not only is she finishing her PhD this month but she represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

Seems to say everything about modern international life.

FYP.

[GreenMan]

I think she is pretty close to a professional translator, being an Italian academic who has spent the last few years in Scotland doing her PhD while trying to play bridge. Unlike many, not only is she finishing her PhD this month but she represented Scotland last month at the Home Internationals.

 

Translation is a specific skill that does not come automatically with being bilingual. Some of the English in the translation was stilted enough to make it clear she doesn't perform textual translation on a regular basis.

[barmar]

We're not talking about translating a legal document or the works of Shakespeare, where all the fine nuances are critical. If someone is able to converse fluently in the language, I think they can probably do a good enough job for an interview like this. The most important thing in this case is knowing the subject matter -- a "professional translator" wouldn't necessarily know much about duplicate bridge and might not know how to translate the jargon idiomatically.

[GreenMan]

We're not talking about translating a legal document or the works of Shakespeare, where all the fine nuances are critical. If someone is able to converse fluently in the language, I think they can probably do a good enough job for an interview like this. The most important thing in this case is knowing the subject matter -- a "professional translator" wouldn't necessarily know much about duplicate bridge and might not know how to translate the jargon idiomatically.

 

A previous commenter was trying to figure out what Lauria might have meant by some specific wording, as if he had said those exact words in English. Since it's not clear to me that this stilted translation was done by someone who "is able to converse fluently" in English, I believed and continue to believe that we should not assume that it is entirely faithful to the original.

[barmar]

The sentence in question was "I think the US is the only country left where these appeal committees exist", right? Is it really the specific wording that's causing confusion, or the claim in general? What do you think he might have intended other than this translation?

 

Is the original Italian interview published anywhere, so someone can offer an alternate translation with a different connotation?

[aguahombre]

Anyone think to ask LL what he meant?

[barmar]

There was a thread last month in the Appeals Committee forum that begain with:

According to Sabine Auken in this interview, "there will not be an appeals committee at the European Championships in in Ostend later this year". Is this true, and if so what will there be instead?

And I think Bridge World has also had a number of editorials recommending that the use of ACs be curtailed, replacing them with appealing to higher level directors.

 

If that's the direction things have been going, I'm not sure why LL's comment can't be taken at face value.

[GreenMan]

There was a thread last month in the Appeals Committee forum that begain with:

 

And I think Bridge World has also had a number of editorials recommending that the use of ACs be curtailed, replacing them with appealing to higher level directors.

 

If that's the direction things have been going, I'm not sure why LL's comment can't be taken at face value.

 

That thread makes quite clear that appeals committees exist in countries other than the U.S.

 

It may be crystal clear to you what "these appeals committees" refers to, but it seems quite ambiguous to me. Is he referring to any sort of appeals committee, or to some specific sort? You seem to be asserting that your interpretation of that phrase constitutes "face value" that the rest of us should understand exactly as you do, but I disagree.

[diana_eva]

The sentence in question was "I think the US is the only country left where these appeal committees exist", right? Is it really the specific wording that's causing confusion, or the claim in general? What do you think he might have intended other than this translation?

 

Is the original Italian interview published anywhere, so someone can offer an alternate translation with a different connotation?

 

the Italian version can be found here:

 

http://neapolitanclu...intervista.html

 

With my vague Italian I'd say the translation is incomplete, but keeps the general meaning. "Credo che gli USA siano il solo paese dove ancora esistano questi comitati d'appello che possono sovvertire le decisioni arbitrali precedentemente assunte."

 

I'd translate this (as word for word as possible):

 

"I think the United States are the only country where there still exist such appeals committees that can overrule TD decisions previously issued."

 

Edit. I looked up the verb sovvertire:

 

 

sovvertire (sovverˈtire)

 

Translations

transitive verb

 

(politics, ordine, stato) to subvert, undermine

Edited May 13, 2013 by diana_eva