3M when M are set as trumps in a GF auction

[antonylee]

In a fairly standard 2/1 framework, assume the auction starts 1M-2m-2red-2M. M is now set as trumps and a GF has been created. I now use the 3-level to show concentration of values (for slam evaluation); I guess cuebidding controls works too even though I don't like it. But in any case, while both partners are showing COV or controls on the way to 4M (or higher), there are two bids with no simple "natural" meaning: 3M and 3N. Well, some may actually use 3N as an offer to play, others (most players, in fact, I guess) as serious or as frivolous. But what about 3M? I'm trying to come up with a useful meaning for bidding 3M, or bypassing 3M, on the way to 4-level cuebids, and interested in hearing about your treatments.

[gwnn]

Normal is to pattern out:

2N: 5422

3red: 5-5

3others: 5431

3M: 6 cards

 

I don't think most people use 3NT as serious/frivolous. That's usually just if we're already at the 3 level.

[PhilKing]

Normal is to pattern out:

2N: 5422

3red: 5-5

3others: 5431

3M: 6 cards

 

 

If you want a decent framework, start with the above, but with the following:

 

2M should show 15+. Jumping to 3M should show a minimum 2/1 (with 3NT in the frame - no need for serious/frivolous). IMO, 3NT is still a possible contract when opener rebids 2NT or 3om over our 2M bid.

[antonylee]

Sorry to insist, but let's say

1S-2C

2D-2S

2N-3D

3H (assuming this shows perhaps honor doubleton of hearts in a 5242 hand?)

...

what is now the difference between 4C, and 3S-3N(frivolous, or offer to play, depending on your agreement)-4C? In both cases 4C should be a club cue with spades agreed, right? For what it's worth, I play a strictly up-the-line control cuebidding style, together with (something similar to) LTTC.

[Siegmund]

Many people do use the space between 2M and 3M for things other than slamming (patterning out, in some cases considering alternative contracts, in some cases allowing the 2M bid on 2 rather than 3)....

 

The space between 3M and 4M is almost always used for cuebids. And if you are going to cuebid, it can be very useful to have bids that say "I want to hear you make the first cuebid." If we have agreed hearts, for instance, I can cuebid 3S if I have the SA; if I don't I might bid 3H to demand partner tell me whether he has the SA or not.

 

You can put 3N to a similar use instead of serious/frivolous (once you are already at 3M -- not much need for a jump from 2M to 3N for that.)

[fromageGB]

Simple for me. While bids other than 3NT or 3M are patterning out, I do use 3NT as non-serious. 3M is therefore a spare bid, so is used as a one-under denial cue bid. In spades, 3NT is a weak bid. 3♠ is a cue bidding hand which denies the ability to make a club control bid. In effect, it asks for the club control. 4♣ shows clubs and denies diamonds, 4♦ shows both minors and denies hearts, 4♥ shows all controls and a better than minimum hand but one that requires partner to have extras as well, or one that thinks it better if partner were to ask for aces.

[Zelandakh]

Simple for me. While bids other than 3NT or 3M are patterning out, I do use 3NT as non-serious. 3M is therefore a spare bid, so is used as a one-under denial cue bid.

One could also use 3M as Frivolous with whichever serious cue structure is preferred for calls between 3M and 4M. If a pair chose to use the bids between 2M and 3M for control-showing rather than patterning out then they could use 3M as RKCB. The extra distributional info is probably to be preferred though.

[P_Marlowe]

Sorry to insist, but let's say

1S-2C

2D-2S

2N-3D

3H (assuming this shows perhaps honor doubleton of hearts in a 5242 hand?)

...

what is now the difference between 4C, and 3S-3N(frivolous, or offer to play, depending on your agreement)-4C? In both cases 4C should be a club cue with spades agreed, right? For what it's worth, I play a strictly up-the-line control cuebidding style, together with (something similar to) LTTC.

You could always use the 3M bid as serious / non serious, 3NT as some kind of RKCB (some call it Baby Blackwood ?!).

Doing it that way, would mean, that you are starting the key card ask sequence a level lower, which may or may not help

you in finding out, if partner happens to have a 3rd round control in a particular suit.

The alternative would be, to use 3NT as a choice of game bid, which is different than using it as non-serious.

A non-serious 3N is not an offer to play 3NT, it is used to limit the hand.

[PhilKing]

Sorry to insist, but let's say

1S-2C

2D-2S

2N-3D

3H (assuming this shows perhaps honor doubleton of hearts in a 5242 hand?)

...

what is now the difference between 4C, and 3S-3N(frivolous, or offer to play, depending on your agreement)-4C? In both cases 4C should be a club cue with spades agreed, right? For what it's worth, I play a strictly up-the-line control cuebidding style, together with (something similar to) LTTC.

 

People are basically confused about all the extra space an auction like this gives them. It's really pretty simple - just do what you would have done in a 3M auction but lower. Once opener has patterned out with 2NT, frivolous/non-frivolous just moves down a step, so step 1 shows a minimum for the auction so far and all other bids show extras.

 

Look at it this way - normally we are at the 3M level when we agree trumps, so need to sort out the "extras" issue to give our slam auctions a firm base. With five extra steps available, we can do more. Probably the "best" solution without playing full relay here (I do) is for opener to pattern out with his entire range and for responder to then issue a frivolous/non-frivoulous message. For me, responder has already shown 15+ with 2♠ so "cueing" logically shows 17+.

 

Putting that all together:

 

1S-2C

2D-2S (15+)

2N(pattern)-3D(17+ cue)

3H(cue)

[gnasher]

People are basically confused about all the extra space an auction like this gives them. It's really pretty simple - just do what you would have done in a 3M auction but lower. Once opener has patterned out with 2NT, frivolous/non-frivolous just moves down a step, so step 1 shows a minimum for the auction so far and all other bids show extras.

 

Look at it this way - normally we are at the 3M level when we agree trumps, so need to sort out the "extras" issue to give our slam auctions a firm base. With five extra steps available, we can do more. Probably the "best" solution without playing full relay here (I do) is for opener to pattern out with his entire range and for responder to then issue a frivolous/non-frivoulous message. For me, responder has already shown 15+ with 2♠ so "cueing" logically shows 17+.

 

Putting that all together:

 

1S-2C

2D-2S (15+)

2N(pattern)-3D(17+ cue)

3H(cue)

 

OK, suppose that we have agreed "Non-serious step 1". That still gives us a 3S bid and a 3NT bid after the serious/non-serious message has been issued. What do these mean?

[PhilKing]

OK, suppose that we have agreed "Non-serious step 1". That still gives us a 3S bid and a 3NT bid after the serious/non-serious message has been issued. What do these mean?

 

3♠ = trump cue, 3NT = trump cue (case for 3N RKCB).

[Zelandakh]

I think what Phil was suggesting is to use the steps as usual (but lower and adjusted for the denominatins available). So, for example

 

...2NT = end of patterning

==

3♣ = frivolous

3♦ = serious diamond cue

... - 3♥ = club cue

... - 3♠ = spade cue

3♥ = serious club cue

... - 3♠ = LTTC

3♠ = serious spade cue

3NT = RKCB

 

or whatever.

[JLOGIC]

People are basically confused about all the extra space an auction like this gives them. It's really pretty simple - just do what you would have done in a 3M auction but lower. Once opener has patterned out with 2NT, frivolous/non-frivolous just moves down a step, so step 1 shows a minimum for the auction so far and all other bids show extras.

 

Look at it this way - normally we are at the 3M level when we agree trumps, so need to sort out the "extras" issue to give our slam auctions a firm base. With five extra steps available, we can do more. Probably the "best" solution without playing full relay here (I do) is for opener to pattern out with his entire range and for responder to then issue a frivolous/non-frivoulous message. For me, responder has already shown 15+ with 2♠ so "cueing" logically shows 17+.

 

Putting that all together:

 

1S-2C

2D-2S (15+)

2N(pattern)-3D(17+ cue)

3H(cue)

 

PhilKing I am disappoint. I thought you were gonna suggest one of my favorite things that I play with 2 partners: after trumps are set at the 2 level, instead of patterning you just play the first step is non serious.

 

Eg. 1H 2C 2D 2H, 2S=minimum. Often responder will be able to jump to 4M without any information leakage. Nothing more tilting than to pattern out with a minimum only to have them know your whole shape while declaring when game isn't even cold.

[JLOGIC]

But yeah I bet in 10 years when we look back and LOL 2013 bidding one thing we will laugh at is that we didn't always play first step min or non serious in cuebidding auctions and waited till 3N. Already I play that 3S is non serious over hearts in all auctions, there's no reason it should be 3N, it should just always be the case with 3N as the substitution bid.

[PhilKing]

PhilKing I am disappoint. I thought you were gonna suggest one of my favorite things that I play with 2 partners: after trumps are set at the 2 level, instead of patterning you just play the first step is non serious.

 

Eg. 1H 2C 2D 2H, 2S=minimum. Often responder will be able to jump to 4M without any information leakage. Nothing more tilting than to pattern out with a minimum only to have them know your whole shape while declaring when game isn't even cold.

 

Nice.

 

For me agreement at the two-level = 15+ so it's not that bad, but I will give it another look.

[JLOGIC]

OK, suppose that we have agreed "Non-serious step 1". That still gives us a 3S bid and a 3NT bid after the serious/non-serious message has been issued. What do these mean?

 

Just substitue is very easy. If your first step would have been 3M which would normally be a trump cue, now just use 3N as the trump cue (so 3H non serious, 3S cue, 3N trump cue, or 3H non serious, 3N trump cue with no spade control etc).

 

If 3D is your non serious, 3H then is trump cue, over that 3N is no spade control but a diamond control, or 3D 3H trump cue 3S spade cue 3N diamond cue etc.

 

Maybe there is a better way to arrange it but just substituting seems fine and a major improvement on normal bidding and is very easy.

 

This leaves a 4D bid available also for last train, eg the auction 3D non serious, 3H trump cue, 3S spade cue, 4D no club or diamond control but still slam interest (depending on the context of the auction this will make sense).

[Zelandakh]

But yeah I bet in 10 years when we look back and LOL 2013 bidding one thing we will laugh at is that we didn't always play first step min or non serious in cuebidding auctions and waited till 3N. Already I play that 3S is non serious over hearts in all auctions, there's no reason it should be 3N, it should just always be the case with 3N as the substitution bid.

I am not only playing that 3♠ is Frivolous after hearts are agreed but also that 3m+1 is Frivolous in auctions where the minor is agreed at the 3 level with definite slam interest. I have in mind to write a post about this idea some time, but do not really have time to sit down and organise all of the ideas for now. Another time you can usefully use step 1 as Frivolous is after an auction like 1♥ - 3♠ (splinter). More interesting is when 1♥ - 3NT is used as a splinter. Now using 4♣ as Frivolous and giving up on Kickback makes a lot of sense to me, with 4♠ becoming the serious cue in the other suit (eg clubs if 3NT shows short spades).

 

Notice that almost everyone already plays Frivolous in the auctions 1♠ - 4♦ and 1♥ - 4♣, we just call it LTTC instead. But here it is effectively the same thing!

 

Going down to 2 level agreeemnt, I have a (very) small number of auctions where this is possible. Where it does happen, the follow-ups are identical to 3 level agreement. That is, if spades are agreed, 2NT = Frivolous; 3♣♦♥ serious denial cues/asks; 3♠ = RKCB (or shows key cards if partner is Captain). Of course, this context is a little different from 2/1 since agreeing the major like this specifically denies interest in hearing more about the shape.

 

In the more general case, do you really think a trump cue is worth the extra step in these days of RKCB? I would have thought that being able to ask for or show key cards a step lower was more useful here to avoid duplication of information. Instead, I would prefer to have the trump cue come above RKCB in the scheme, so that we trump cue only when we have decided for a cue auction instead of a key card auction. But there must be something in it since both you and Phil have suggested it.

 

I absolutely agree with you about how easy this is to implement though: Step 1 = slam try; Step 2, 3, 4 = cues with strong slam interest; Step 5 = key cards. I reckon even most good club players would get that down pat if they were taught it as Standard from the off.

[JLOGIC]

 

In the more general case, do you really think a trump cue is worth the extra step in these days of RKCB? I would have thought that being able to ask for or show key cards a step lower was more useful here to avoid duplication of information. Instead, I would prefer to have the trump cue come above RKCB in the scheme, so that we trump cue only when we have decided for a cue auction instead of a key card auction. But there must be something in it since both you and Phil have suggested it.

 

I absolutely agree with you about how easy this is to implement though: Step 1 = slam try; Step 2, 3, 4 = cues with strong slam interest; Step 5 = key cards. I reckon even most good club players would get that down pat if they were taught it as Standard from the off.

 

Honestly this is probably the same thing as being a slave to 3N serious, my brain is probably just a slave to keycard being at the 4 level, I have never played 3 level keycard since my mind has not gone there. So I cannot really comment whether trump cue is worth the step. I will say that trump cue (and I should point out trump cue means GOOD trumps, eg don't cuebid Kxxxx or Axxxx just because you have a top honor, that can be found out in keycard, but sometimes when you have Qxxx opp Kxxx it's hard to avoid slam since if either player had the jack it is a very good slam but it's pretty pitiful without it, and keycard cannot resolve that. If you have bad trumps and your partner bypassess showing good trumps then that is often helpful for this problem).

 

I will add that Roy and Sabine (my new gurus on cutting edge stuff along with you and PhilKing :P) often have 3 level keycard and they play it as optional (so partner can refuse to answer, actually they play double optional so you can ask, partner declines, you can re-ask, partner declines even more, then you stop lol) often have this. I feel like relay systems often have this in general also so it seems less weird to relayers (my impression is once shape is resolved often the first step is min/max and you zoom controls with max, and the next steps are keycards for suits, excepting the terminator bid and 3N, is this true?).

[mike777]

Sorry to insist, but let's say

1S-2C

2D-2S

2N-3D

3H (assuming this shows perhaps honor doubleton of hearts in a 5242 hand?)

...

what is now the difference between 4C, and 3S-3N(frivolous, or offer to play, depending on your agreement)-4C? In both cases 4C should be a club cue with spades agreed, right? For what it's worth, I play a strictly up-the-line control cuebidding style, together with (something similar to) LTTC.

 

anton I find the discussion in your thread after 2nt and then 3h very confusing....and very complicated.

 

1) assume 2nt is 11-13

2)3h=cue given above

 

 

Axxxx...KQ...Axxx...xx

 

or worse.

[broze]

Already I play that 3S is non serious over hearts in all auctions

 

How about 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠?

 

Partner and I recently had a hilariously awful misunderstanding in this auction. The worst thing was we had even discussed it...

 

1♠ - 2♥

3♥ - 3♠¹

3NT² - 4♦

4♥³ - 4♠

5♦ - 5♥ - AP⁵

 

 

1) alerted by my partner, intended as natural, showing double fit, setting spades

2) alert, I think serious for spades, he thinks spade cue for hearts

3) I think last train for spades showing a club control, he thinks to play.

4) I think to play (weeping inside), he thinks kickback for ♥

5) Finally - the auction is impossible. 1 off.... <_<

[TWO4BRIDGE]

@ Broze ( post # 20 ):

How about 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠?

 

Putting aside the Serious/Frivolous question for the moment,

the normal interpretation for the following 2/1 GF auctions is as follows:

 

1M -2m!

3m - 3M is Double-fit auction where the Major as the established (trump) suit .

 

The ONLY exception is:

1S - 2H!

3H - 3S where ♥ is the established (trump) suit and 3S is a Ctrl cue bid .

[JLOGIC]

How about 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠?

 

 

Double fit is probably more common but I think cuebidding is better. So for me it would be non serious and 3N would be a serious spade cue, but it's a partnership decision.

[Siegmund]

One certainly can swap the meanings of 3S and 3NT when hearts are trump if one wants.

 

My partner and I considered doing this but ultimately didn't, even though we did in numerous other auctions (for instance giving 1H-2S and 1S-2NT the same meanings.)

 

The reason we didn't was that when a minor was agreed as trump, 3NT (and 4NT) waiting bids in cuebidding auctions were passable. Even though you can swap them around so that the artificial bid is 3M+1 in a major suit auction, you cannot do "always 3m+1" or "always 4m-1" in a minor suit auction. We found it easier to have one package of cuebidding agreements, rather than have to have separate rules over minors and majors.

 

There is also the matter of how often your opponents will make lead-directing doubles in your cuebidding auctions. If most of your opponents are playing simple "I want this led" or "I have a card here" doubles they will double a lot more often over an artificial or control-denying bid than they will over a natural control-showing bid. Whether that is good or bad depends how much work you have done to take advantage of the extra step you gain after their double, and whether you think you get enough use out of that extra step to compensate for what the defense learns.

[Zelandakh]

Honestly this is probably the same thing as being a slave to 3N serious, my brain is probably just a slave to keycard being at the 4 level, I have never played 3 level keycard since my mind has not gone there. So I cannot really comment whether trump cue is worth the step. I will say that trump cue (and I should point out trump cue means GOOD trumps, eg don't cuebid Kxxxx or Axxxx just because you have a top honor, that can be found out in keycard, but sometimes when you have Qxxx opp Kxxx it's hard to avoid slam since if either player had the jack it is a very good slam but it's pretty pitiful without it, and keycard cannot resolve that. If you have bad trumps and your partner bypassess showing good trumps then that is often helpful for this problem).

I can offer you a solution to this. Use one of the additional steps you have after RKCB as a trump SSA, asking for the trump knave.

 

I will add that Roy and Sabine (my new gurus on cutting edge stuff along with you and PhilKing :P) often have 3 level keycard and they play it as optional (so partner can refuse to answer, actually they play double optional so you can ask, partner declines, you can re-ask, partner declines even more, then you stop lol) often have this. I feel like relay systems often have this in general also so it seems less weird to relayers (my impression is once shape is resolved often the first step is min/max and you zoom controls with max, and the next steps are keycards for suits, excepting the terminator bid and 3N, is this true?).

That is not dissimilar to the conditional KCB method that I sometimes advocate for 4 level minor suit agreements, where the first step declines a slam try and higher steps accept and show key cards. I have never come across two denials and a third ask before though.

 

My own relay system works just as you describe, a minimum (9-11 and 0-4 controls) bids the first step and a hand with the same shape and extras (12+ or 5+ controls) zooms to controls. My relay breaks are different though; I do not use a terminator bid and instead condense all of the RKCB asks into 4♣ and 4♦. I prefer to use the space below 3NT to look for the best game, with stopper asks or to set a suit as trumps for a "natural" cue bid auction. That is just me though; I know several of the other relayers like their relay breaks to be RKCB even below 3NT. Occasionally a suit can be set at the 2 level like this, then the cue bids start there with the first step as Frivolous. In this case, 3 of the trump suit is often RKCB. I cannot see any reason why the same method cannot be ported to 2/1 in similar cases.