Moysian?

[CSGibson]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqjt4ha54dk943cq2&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1dp1sp1n(12-14)p2n(invite%20without%204H/5S)p3sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Partnership style is to almost never raise as opener with 3 card support when there is another reasonable rebid. 2N ostensibly denies 5+♠, and is natural invitational.

 

4♠ or 3N?

[MrAce]

I think in order 3♠ , to make sense, pd should be weak both in hearts and clubs, or he could have bid the one which he is not concerned about. (or am i a bit off on this ? ) His likely shapes are

 

3244

3343

3442

 

3253

3352

 

Assume he is weak in both of the unbid suits and has a super 3 card spade fit, which makes him holding something like (i would not consider 3♠ with 3343 shape personally)

 

AKx

xx

AQxx

xxxx

 

AKx

xxxx

AQJx

xx

 

AKx

xx

AQxxx

xxx

 

AKx

xxx

AQxxx

xx

 

I can see how 4♠ could be superior when pd has 5th ♦ and only 2 clubs. But we will have issues each time one of the opponents have 4 card spade and they force us to ruff 3rd ♣ when pd has 3rd ♣. When pd has 3 card hearts and only 2 card clubs obviously we are in big trouble in 3NT, however 4♠ will not make either unless pd has 5th diamond. If 4432 shapes are ok to bid 3♠ i think 3 NT stands out better. But if we expect opener to hold 5 card diamonds for his 3♠ more often, there is a case to bid 4♠ imo.

 

I would personally bid 3NT, even when it is wrong it may turn out good, they may not lead it, or they may not have enough club tricks to defeat or they may block it. Also when it is wrong 4♠ may not be cold.

[CSGibson]

Why would we ever be forced to ruff a 3rd club if partner is 3=2=5=3? Can't we just discard a heart from hand?

[gnasher]

I think he should be 3-5 with everything in the two suits, so I'd bid 4♠.

[aguahombre]

3-5 distribution is a guarantee, if I get to have my partner, here.

 

3-3-4-3 should not bid 3S enroute..as Mr. Ace said; and 3-2-4-4 would have opened 1C. Bidding 3NT rather than 4S would be ignoring partner. She gets mad when I do that.

 

And, no she can't be 3-4-4-2 with weak clubs. She would have taken the opportunity to try for a Moysian in either major via 3H.

 

IMO, the rebid of 2N and not 3D was fine. If that club Q were in a red suit, 3D would be better.

[MrAce]

Why would we ever be forced to ruff a 3rd club if partner is 3=2=5=3? Can't we just discard a heart from hand?

 

You are correct, i missed that.

[ArtK78]

......and 3-2-4-4 would have opened 1C.

?

[aguahombre]

?

Yes. You might not like opening 1C with 3-2-4-4, but I am sure your have heard that some people do.

 

I stipulated "if I get to have my partner.."

[phil_20686]

I can see how 4♠ could be superior when pd has 5th ♦ and only 2 clubs. But we will have issues each time one of the opponents have 4 card spade and they force us to ruff 3rd ♣ when pd has 3rd ♣. When pd has 3 card hearts and only 2 card clubs obviously we are in big trouble in 3NT, however 4♠ will not make either unless pd has 5th diamond. If 4432 shapes are ok to bid 3♠ i think 3 NT stands out better. But if we expect opener to hold 5 card diamonds for his 3♠ more often, there is a case to bid 4♠ imo.

 

I would personally bid 3NT, even when it is wrong it may turn out good, they may not lead it, or they may not have enough club tricks to defeat or they may block it. Also when it is wrong 4♠ may not be cold.

 

On hands like this 5D seems to make pretty offten: AKx xx AQxxx xxx and 5d a claimer on any 3-1 diamond break. My guess is that 3N is usually best, but if I were going to look for 4S surely I would give partner the opportunity to play in diamonds. For one thing, I always look for opportunities to transfer the blame.

 

The other hand type worth considering is when partner has weak diamonds and a singleton club honour. Feels a little odd, but AKx xxxx QTxxx K might bid this way. Keep making the diamonds weaker if you are comfortable bidding two diamonds on this. I guess most people styles is to raise directly, but he did say "seldom raise on three cards", unclear if that meant 3 cards in a wk nt or any three cards.

[aguahombre]

On hands like this 5D seems to make pretty offten: AKx xx AQxxx xxx and 5d a claimer on any 3-1 diamond break. My guess is that 3N is usually best, but if I were going to look for 4S surely I would give partner the opportunity to play in diamonds.

At Imps, it would only cost one IMP. At matchpoints, 4S would be huge.

[Free]

Partner has a reason to search for an alternative strain. His problem is either in ♥ or in ♣, and we're not good enough in any of those to solve his problem. Therefore I'd bid 4♠.

[gszes]

good to see everyone agrees p must be near top with clubs/hearts essentially wide open

I would also make that bid if I were 3343 not just the other balanced options. I think 3n

is the best choice here mainly because it is highly unlikely p has 5 diamonds. It was too

easy for p to bid 3d if they were concerned about 3n. If this is correct we are very unlikely

to score 10 tricks and have a great shot at 9 tricks.

 

3n

 

save the moysian for hands where 3n is definitely wrong.