CSGibson Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 [hv=pc=n&s=saqj4h54dt63cakq5&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1n(15-17)p2d(hearts)p2hp3c(slam%20try)p3s(cue%20for%20clubs)p4hp]133|200[/hv] You have shown a 15-17 NT, and a hand with a spade control/values & support in clubs. Partner has shown a slam try with hearts and clubs. 4H is undiscussed, but ostensibly natural. Do you move on from here, and if so, how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 What is your cue bidding style, in my world, partner has categorically denied a diamond control, are you playing minorwood or KB if he wanted to ask aces in ♣ ? I also don't know what hands he's denied by no taking other routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 6C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 partner had the option of showing specific shortness and a 6 card heart suit. Our cue-bidding style is to always bid first round controls, and to bid 2nd round controls only if it seems likely to be useful to partner. 3S does not demand a cue-bid. We do not have minorwood/kickback available in this partnership, cue-bidding will have to suffice to determine whether you can use 4N as keycard safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I move when partner is making slam tries and I hold AKQ in his suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I would worry two things here. 1) 3C could be somewhat tentative with a hand that doesn't want to bid no trumps. 2) Does 3S absolutely agree clubs? Or could it just be a denial of the ability to bid something else (3H, 3NT?) 3) 4H sounds worryingly like a suggestion to play on a "wheel has come off" auction. I'm going to bid 5C here. Hopefully partner can work out that we don't have a diamond control. But I imagine I'll be discussing this hand later. I much prefer 4C on my previous turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I have all my bids. I prefer clubs to hearts. I don't have a diamond control. 5♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 6♣ if 3♣ really is slammish. Curious what do you do as responder with xx AQxxx Kx Jxxxx after a transfer if 3♣ is a slam try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 6♣ if 3♣ really is slammish. Curious what do you do as responder with xx AQxxx Kx Jxxxx after a transfer if 3♣ is a slam try. Call the director? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I would worry two things here. 1) 3C could be somewhat tentative with a hand that doesn't want to bid no trumps. 2) Does 3S absolutely agree clubs? Or could it just be a denial of the ability to bid something else (3H, 3NT?) 3) 4H sounds worryingly like a suggestion to play on a "wheel has come off" auction. I'm going to bid 5C here. Hopefully partner can work out that we don't have a diamond control. But I imagine I'll be discussing this hand later. I much prefer 4C on my previous turn. This partner does not get creative with their bids, 3C guarentees 4+ clubs. 3S is absolutely forward-going with a club fit, as described in the OP. You can safely assume that the OP is not trying to trick you, and that the information there is solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 6♣ if 3♣ really is slammish. Curious what do you do as responder with xx AQxxx Kx Jxxxx after a transfer if 3♣ is a slam try.I agree with your objection to the methods. "Natural, forcing, and might be slammish" is our choice. And obviously your 2-5-2-5 hand, if adjusted slightly to 1-5-2-5 would sign off in 3NT after the 3S control bid for clubs denying 3 hearts, so I think we agree on that point too. With the OP situation, including its conditions about 1st round control, etc., I still would blast 6C as Roger originally suggested. Partner should have taken a different route with a slammish hand containing no diamond or club control; so we are not off two cashing diamonds, and I can show my super clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Call the director? Fine, take away a spade and stop dodging the issue...:P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Fine, take away a spade and stop dodging the issue...:P 3N in this partnership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 3N in this partnership.Of course, with Phil's hand to which you were referring, your partnership would not be at that point. It is not slammish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 3C should be GF, slammish..... but it is normally supposed to show a "good" 2nd suit...normally a 2nd 5 card suit or at least a very good 4 cards . What bothers me is partner is missing the top 3 honors in ♣. S/he must have a really good ♥ suit and possibly a 6 card ♣ suit to the J 10 .... maybe a 6-6 . I think I'd just blast to 6C also after 3C . EDIT: I also don't think 3S over 3C is an advance cue for ♣ as trumps . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 3C should be GF, slammish.....EDIT: I also don't think 3S over 3C is an advance cue for ♣ as trumps .I would agree with the first item if you meant opener should presuppose 3C is slammish while allowing for the possibility of responder merely having doubt about 3NT. I just flat disagree with the "edit". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I think I'd just blast to 6C also after 3C . EDIT: I also don't think 3S over 3C is an advance cue for ♣ as trumps . Giving up on grand...hmmm... Also, I am not saying that 3S over 3C is an advanced cue for clubs in all partnerships. I'm saying that this partnership has defined it as such. So you are just flat wrong to say that it isn't, since this problem is from the perspective of my partnership agreements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Giving up on grand...hmmm...According to OP's auction, if 3S is the cheapest Ctrl-cue for ♣, then it denies a ♦-Ctrl.Then Opener's 4H should be a Ctrl-cue ( and actually should show at least 2 of the top 3 ), and also denying a ♦-Ctrl .[ Why should 4H be natural if ♣ were agreed ? ]. Soo, maybe my 6C blast is too optimistic if there are at least 2 quick ♦ losers ....( but I blasted over the 3C bid ) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 According to OP's auction, if 3S is the cheapest Ctrl-cue for ♣, then it denies a ♦-Ctrl.Then Opener's 4H should be a Ctrl-cue ( and actually should show at least 2 of the top 3 ), and also denying a ♦-Ctrl .[ Why should 4H be natural if ♣ were agreed ? ]. Soo, maybe my 6C blast is too optimistic if there are at least 2 quick ♦ losers ....( but I blasted over the 3C bid ) .Their cue-bidding style as stated does not deny second round diamond control. We can assume 2nd-round diamond control because of the slam try and our club holding. If we are wrong about that, then perhaps responder will reconsider what a slam try looks like and how to better explore with his actual hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Their cue-bidding style as stated does not deny second round diamond control. We can assume 2nd-round diamond control because of the slam try and our club holding. If we are wrong about that, then perhaps responder will reconsider what a slam try looks like and how to better explore with his actual hand.I finally read Gibson's post # 4 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I confess that I don't understand the methods said to be in use. Are we to assume that responder can never find a club fit with 5=5 major and clubs with less than slam going values? Seems insane to me: we have to either suppress the club suit and commit to a 5-2 heart fit, with perhaps dubious trump, or suppress the club suit and offer 3N, when the opps may be running a side suit with us cold for 5♣. Imagine opener's hand opposite say Kx KQxxx x Jxxxx: do we have any method of finding the cold 5♣as opposed to the hopeless 3N? And finding hearts 4-2 with the Ace over the KQ makes 4♥ hopeless as well. Make it Kx AQxxx x Jxxxx and now I'd rather be in a club slam than 3N, yet responder's hand is by no means a slam try opposite the vast majority of opening 1N hands. Having got the rant off my chest, I bid 6♣ since I cannot construct a 'slammish' hand on which we don't have play, and most of the ones that sprang to mind are close to frigid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 I move when partner is making slam tries and I hold AKQ in his suit. That sounds like a reasonable approach to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 4♥ shows, of all things, a hand that wants to play in 4♥. Yes, partner has to have at least a mild slam try, otherwise he would just have insisted on heart, but he can be turned off by spade values. What about? ♠-♥AKJxxx♦Qx♣JT9xx He might have the same hand with the diamond king instead, so I bid 4NT, DI for clubs. If you don't play that, obviously you should bid 4♠ to beg for a diamond control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 I think the obvious bid here is 4♠, which must surely show further interest, really good spades (and clubs) and no diamond control within the context of the methods employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 I think the obvious bid here is 4♠, which must surely show further interest, really good spades (and clubs) and no diamond control within the context of the methods employed.This was my feeling too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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