Remonstrable

[lamford]

I know there are things that I would need time to work out, that other posters on this forum would not. <snip> should you be ruled against in such a case where you do think?

I think it depends whether it is a situation where "players should be particularly careful when variations may work to the benefit of their side". If it is then you should be ruled against, even though you were genuinely thinking.

 

So, either think more quickly, or play in events that gordontd is directing.

[billw55]

I think it depends whether it is a situation where "players should be particularly careful when variations may work to the benefit of their side". If it is then you should be ruled against, even though you were genuinely thinking.

 

So, either think more quickly, or play in events that gordontd is directing.

If this is really the practical result of the rule, then I think it is an absolutely terrible, abominable rule. What is the point of playing if we are not allowed to think over the best play, when we really do need to?

[lamford]

If this is really the practical result of the rule, then I think it is an absolutely terrible, abominable rule. What is the point of playing if we are not allowed to think over the best play, when we really do need to?

I think if the rule were "no justifiable reason for the action" that would cover your legitimate concern that when needing to think one might be ruled against. The test should be not just whether someone was thinking about a bridge action, but whether he should have been.

[Zelandakh]

For that matter, I know there are other players who would need time over things that I do not; and I would not seek a ruling over it. What about you Zel? Can you see everything as quickly as gnasher, or Josh or Justin? If you are playing them, should you be ruled against in such a case where you do think?

I am probably one of the slowest players you will ever meet. That said, what I try to do is to huddle every now and then when the situation is not time-sensitive and plan what I will do in advance. Also, at the level I play at (endplays and squeezes are very rare) it is often good enough to play the second best card in tempo. Perhaps I would feel differently about it if I was playing with the big boys and needed a long think on almost every card. I certainly would not try to play at Andy/Josh/Justin's pace though. The key is just to do your (extra) thinking at times where it is not deceptive.

[gnasher]

Why do people keep accusing me of playing quickly? My teammates usually bring a book to read whilst they're waiting to score up.

 

Perhaps Lamford's example was ill-chosen, or perhaps he should have told us something about East's ability as a player, but I think we're getting distracted from the point that I think he was trying to make. Maybe it's better considered in abstract terms:

 

A defender has a bridge problem. We would expect this particular player to take a short time to solve the problem. Instead, he spends a much longer time thinking about it. Declarer assumes that he was thinking about something else, and goes wrong as a result. Does declarer have redress under Law 23?

[mink]

This goes just a bit too far. The relevant law is

Law 73D1: It is desirable, though not always required, for players to maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. However, players should be particularly careful when variations may work to the benefit of their side. Otherwise, unintentionally to vary the tempo or manner in which a call or play is made is not in itself an infraction. Inferences from such variation may appropriately be drawn only by an opponent and at his own risk.

 

This law clearly shows that the right to think when one has a bridge reason does not trump all obligations. One still has an obligation to "be particularly careful when variations may work to the benefit of their side".

 

A phrase like "It is desirable, though not always required, ..." should not be part of any law, bridge or otherwise. The Law should tell me what I am allowed to do, and what I am not allowed to do. But this phrase renders everything that comes next to a vagueness and causes different interpretations. The same is true when I am required to "be particularly careful". It does not say what to do if I really have to think in order to solve a current bridge problem, and happen to recognize that thinking may mislead opp (btw. I only might recognize that it MAY mislead opps, as maybe different opps might draw quite the opposite conclusions from my thinking, as this thread shows.) Am I allowed to think now, or means "being careful" that I have to make a decision without thinking or, if I already did think some time and it suddenly strikes my mind that my thinking might mislead opps, chose the alternative that is less misleading for them instead of the alternative that is likely the best for me?

 

And what if I never imagined that my thinking might mislead opps? Can I still be made responsible for not trying hard enough to envision what might be going on in my opps' minds?

 

Karl

[Zelandakh]

I think that if a player can see that a tempo variation will work to her/his side's advantage and then makes such a variation outside of "a reasonable time" in thinking about the problem, then they should be a ruled against. What is "a reasoable time"? That is a judgement call to be made by the TD from knowledge of the (class of) player involved. I base this interpretation on 73D1, which uses the word otherwise, suggesting to me that unintentionally varying one's tempo in tempo-sensitive situations is to be considered a potential infraction.

[billw55]

Why do people keep accusing me of playing quickly? My teammates usually bring a book to read whilst they're waiting to score up.

heheh, no offense intended. I only used you as an example because (1) you were mentioned in this context earlier in the thread, and (2) I believe that you play at a significantly higher level than I do. Ergo, at least some things that are obvious to you will require thought for me.

[lamford]

Perhaps Lamford's example was ill-chosen, or perhaps he should have told us something about East's ability as a player

I think East's ability is at most average, and his genuine thoughts at the time were probably typical of many average players.

[barmar]

I believe the purpose of the "demonstrable bridge reason" clause is to prohibit coffeehousing -- hesitating when there's nothing bridge-related to think about, particularly if the intent is to mislead declarer.

 

I don't think the lawmakers intended that phrase to require directors to judge how quickly players should be able to make decisions. If the player could have done their thinking earlier, but didn't plan ahead, then they still have a bridge reason to think when the decision point comes up.

 

Does it make sense to construe any laws as requiring play with a particular level of expertise? The whole point of playing a game is to determine who is better at it. Saying that a player has broken a rule if they didn't plan ahead adequately puts too much of a burden on players, I think.

[billw55]

dammit barmar fix it so we can rep you !!

[nige1]

Barmar has a point As long as you have two or more cards in a suit, I suppose you can usually demonstrate a bridge-reason for tanking. For example if Roy Welland had played his pips more carefully against Helness, he might not have needed to appeal.

 

What if you take "The tanker believed that he had a Bridge Reason" argument to an extreme? What about a singleton?

 

How would Barmar rule in this case. You hold ♠ A 3 ♥ Q J 2 ♦ 6 5 4 3 ♣ 6 5 4 3

Against RHO's 6♠ contract, you lead a ♣ to declarer's ace.

Decarer immediately leads a ♥ towards dummy's ♥ A T 9 8 7 6 . After thought you insert the queen and dummy wins with the ace.

Now declarer leads a ♥ from dummy and ruffs with ♠2.

You are about to follow suit, when your ♥ J 2 transmogrify into ♦ J 2 :)

This kind of thing may never happen to you but for me it's a frequent occurrence :(

You over-ruff gratefully with the ♠3 and cash your ace of trumps (before partner has a chance to revoke).

Declarer complains to the director that, although he could have ruffed higher in complete safety, he felt there was no need to bother, after your hesitation.

Should the director judge that you had a demonstrable bridge-reason for your hesitation? (You certainly believed that you had one).

And how should the director rule?

[mycroft]

ACBL case law states that "taking time determining which card will be the most deceptive" in a situation where thinking itself would be deceptive, is not a demonstrable bridge reason (the case IIRC was "which of the 7 or 5 is more likely to induce a defender's continuation, in a situation where declarer wants such continuation and if declarer had [cards], he would have to think of what to do").

 

Obviously, this is only ACBL case law, but it seems to make sense.

[lamford]

Barmar has a point As long as you have two or more cards in a suit, I suppose you can usually demonstrate a bridge-reason for tanking. For example if Roy Welland had played his pips more carefully against Helness, he might not have needed to appeal.

 

What if you take "The tanker believed that he had a Bridge Reason" argument to an extreme? What about a singleton?

 

How would Barmar rule in this case. You hold ♠ A 3 ♥ Q J 2 ♦ 6 5 4 3 ♣ 6 5 4 3

Against RHO's 6♠ contract, you lead a ♣ to declarer's ace.

Decarer immediately leads a ♥ towards dummy's ♥ A T 9 8 7 6 . After thought you insert the queen and dummy wins with the ace.

Now declarer leads a ♥ from dummy and ruffs with ♠2.

You are about to follow suit, when your ♥ J 2 transmogrify into ♦ J 2 :)

This kind of thing may never happen to you but for me it's a frequent occurrence :(

You over-ruff gratefully with the ♠3 and cash your ace of trumps (before partner has a chance to revoke).

Declarer complains to the director that, although he could have ruffed higher in complete safety, he felt there was no need to bother, after your hesitation.

Should the director judge that you had a demonstrable bridge-reason for your hesitation? (You certainly believed that you had one).

And how should the director rule?

I think that a BIT with a singleton, even if the player did not think it was a singleton, has to be punished.

[blackshoe]

A phrase like "It is desirable, though not always required, ..." should not be part of any law, bridge or otherwise. The Law should tell me what I am allowed to do, and what I am not allowed to do. But this phrase renders everything that comes next to a vagueness and causes different interpretations. The same is true when I am required to "be particularly careful". It does not say what to do if I really have to think in order to solve a current bridge problem, and happen to recognize that thinking may mislead opp (btw. I only might recognize that it MAY mislead opps, as maybe different opps might draw quite the opposite conclusions from my thinking, as this thread shows.) Am I allowed to think now, or means "being careful" that I have to make a decision without thinking or, if I already did think some time and it suddenly strikes my mind that my thinking might mislead opps, chose the alternative that is less misleading for them instead of the alternative that is likely the best for me?

 

And what if I never imagined that my thinking might mislead opps? Can I still be made responsible for not trying hard enough to envision what might be going on in my opps' minds?

The law is what it is. Discussion of what it should be belongs in the "changing laws" forum, not here.

[blackshoe]

I think that a BIT with a singleton, even if the player did not think it was a singleton, has to be punished.

"Off with his head!" B-)

[gnasher]

I think that a BIT with a singleton, even if the player did not think it was a singleton, has to be punished.

I think that a BIT with a singleton, even if the player did not think it was a singleton, has to lead to rectification of any damage.

[blackshoe]

So is the infraction that he broke tempo, or that he failed to sort his hand correctly?

[JLOGIC]

I know this is the laws forum so this opinion might not be that welcome, but in real life no one who has played bridge before tanks for a minute before stiffing their king. In real life imo many players think for a long time like they are fake squeezed.

 

Instead of playing for the drop then trying to win the director ruling (and I have only seen someone win this kind of spot a few times out of many), just take the finesse when this type of opp huddles and pitches their diamond, and go for the drop when they do it smoothly.

 

My opinion on the law aspect of this is that the director should change the result, but generally this does not happen.

 

Look at it this way, people all of the sudden need time to "think" for a long time before pitching a diamond without the king. How many people need time to "think" for a long time when they have the king? All of the sudden these players realize this IS a tempo sensitive situation, they don't want to give away that they have stiffed their king. But somehow with 2 small many people need a lot of time to think.

[barmar]

So is the infraction that he broke tempo, or that he failed to sort his hand correctly?

Kibitzers might appreciate it if there were a law requiring players to sort their hands. But until there is, we only have the tempo issue to rule on.

[barmar]

Barmar has a point As long as you have two or more cards in a suit, I suppose you can usually demonstrate a bridge-reason for tanking. For example if Roy Welland had played his pips more carefully against Helness, he might not have needed to appeal.

 

What if you take "The tanker believed that he had a Bridge Reason" argument to an extreme? What about a singleton?

 

How would Barmar rule in this case. You hold ♠ A 3 ♥ Q J 2 ♦ 6 5 4 3 ♣ 6 5 4 3

Against RHO's 6♠ contract, you lead a ♣ to declarer's ace.

Decarer immediately leads a ♥ towards dummy's ♥ A T 9 8 7 6 . After thought you insert the queen and dummy wins with the ace.

Now declarer leads a ♥ from dummy and ruffs with ♠2.

You are about to follow suit, when your ♥ J 2 transmogrify into ♦ J 2 :)

This kind of thing may never happen to you but for me it's a frequent occurrence :(

You over-ruff gratefully with the ♠3 and cash your ace of trumps (before partner has a chance to revoke).

Declarer complains to the director that, although he could have ruffed higher in complete safety, he felt there was no need to bother, after your hesitation.

Should the director judge that you had a demonstrable bridge-reason for your hesitation? (You certainly believed that you had one).

And how should the director rule?

Who do you think you are, lamford?

 

The way I might deal with this is to say that the "extra care" you have to take in tempo-sensitive situations includes being careful about seeing what's in your hand. The hearts didn't magically transmogriphy into diamonds, you screwed up when you sorted you hand. And this carelessness eventually led to the misleading break in tempo.

[billw55]

So if I'm playing against Justin and I need to blank a king I should ...

 

:) kidding of course

[lamford]

Who do you think you are, lamford?

 

The way I might deal with this is to say that the "extra care" you have to take in sensitive situations includes being careful about

I didn't post that example! The way I might deal with this is to say that the "extra care" you have to take in sensitive situations includes being careful about who you blame for a post.

[barmar]

I didn't post that example!

I know. My question should be parsed as "Do you think you're lamford?", not "Lamford, who do you think you are?" It was a joke about the fact that he posted a hypothetical with a corner case, usually your specialty.