unusual sequence

[Zelandakh]

This came up in a (local) MSC problem and I found it interesting. I will probably post the problem itself at some point but first a double question. The bidding starts:

 

1♠ - (P) - 1NT - (P);

2♠ - (3♥).

 

What would Double mean now by Responder, and does it make a difference whether 1NT is forcing or not?

[helene_t]

If 1NT is NF then it is quite clear that it is penalty.

 

If 1NT is forcing then it could be useful to play double as showing 10-11 points with doubleton support. It would be an optional double, then. But I still think that penalty is best.

[gwnn]

Penalty. We're getting rich.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I think it is the other way around ( Helene ).

If Responder had a ♥ stack but not enough points for a 2/1 GF, s/he would be relegated to bid 1NTF first .... so in this case X would be penalty .

 

If non-forcing 1NT, s/he could bid 2H ( 1 Rnd forcing ) .

But in this case, I don't know what the X should mean .... I think you need prior discussion on this one -- would Responder have 4 cards ♥ ( can't have 5 since could have bid 2H w/10,11 hcp ) or ♥-shortness ?

[fromageGB]

I play forcing NT with a limited 2♠, so X is penalty and shows values plus some heart length, as I play it.

 

Playing non-forcing (which I don't), then it is not so clear for me, but if 1NT can be passed, and 2♠ is to play, while responder may perhaps be wanting to make a spade game invitation, conceivably wanting X for that, there is also the need to cater for, say, a 10 count with 4 hearts, and this would seem more common. So I would think penalty also.

 

Maybe forcing/non forcing NT does not come into it. Perhaps it depends on whether 2♠ is limited to say a 14 count or whether it can be stronger. If it could be 16, then there are reasons in both treatments to make it spade game invitation.

[PhilKing]

Punish them!

[WellSpyder]

Punish them!

I agree with Phil, but I think he could have made his point more forcibly....

[aguahombre]

If 1NT is forcing then it could be useful to play double as showing 10-11 points with doubleton support. It would be an optional double, then. But I still think that penalty is best.

With 10-12 points and doubleton support, not wanting to insist on penalty, responder could scrape up a 3S bid opposite partner's known 6 of them. Penalty is definitely best for the double.

[HeartA]

both are penalty, of course. take out? for what? If pd has a minor worth to bid at 4 level, bid it.

[yunling]

With 10-12 points and doubleton support, not wanting to insist on penalty, responder could scrape up a 3S bid opposite partner's known 6 of them. Penalty is definitely best for the double.

 

Then what will you do with a 3145 6 count?

[aguahombre]

Then what will you do with a 3145 6 count?

raise spades the first time?