1c or 1d?

[flytoox]

when you hold 4-4 in minor, which suit do you open? 2/1 or sayc. i prefer 1c,

coz i think which could save space for pd, in case he has weak hand with c

suit. but pd said i should open 1d. any comments or thoughts? or purely depend

on partnership style?

[pbleighton]

Most will open 1D, unless the clubs are much stronger, or unless you have a hand which is strong enough to reverse.

 

The reason you would bid 1D with a minimum opener is your rebid - if you open 1C you can't show your diamonds.

[flytoox]

my hand is:

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

open 1d, after very likely 1h, rebid 2c? or

open 1c, after very likey 1h, reverse 2d?

[bglover]

This was actually covered extensively a few months ago.

 

The rule generally is if you are 4-4 minors start with 1d and if 3-3 start with 1c. Both make sense in the context of leaving the most room bid your suits without using bidding space.

 

If, like myself or pbleighton, you are comfortable with reversing on a 4-4 hand (many people will tell you they are NOT comfortable reversing with equal length suits), then by all means, open 1C and be sure your parnter knows your reverse can be on a 4-4 hand.

 

Yes, you have lied about your shape (because a reverse, by definition, requires unequal suits) but you have accurately given your point range at a low level.

 

I personally think the trade off is worth it, but I assure you that a flurry of responses are about to follow this post telling me why I am wrong...

 

Come n get me!

[flytoox]

This was actually covered extensively a few months ago.

 

If, like myself or pbleighton, you are comfortable with reversing on a 4-4 hand (many people will tell you they are NOT comfortable reversing with equal length suits), then by all means, open 1C and be sure your parnter knows your reverse can be on a 4-4 hand.

 

Yes, you have lied about your shape (because a reverse, by definition, requires unequal suits) but you have accurately given your point range at a low level.

 

 

if my hand is reall strong, then I think i will prefer reverse, but here my hand is:

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

which is somewhere between, reverse is slightly overbid, but 1d-1h-2c would be slightly underbid. Isnot it? Would you consider the vul when you consider the bidding strategy here?

[inquiry]

when you hold 4-4 in minor, which suit do you open?

 

As a general rule, I open 1D with 4-4 in the minors. Notice I said in general, about 15 to 20% of the time I will open 1 CLUB. Here are two fast and easy rules to that I use.

 

1) I examine my entire hand. Will I have an easy rebid over partner's most likely response?

 

2) If your LHO overcalls and becomes declarer, do I have a STRONG preference for which minor partner starts at trick one.

 

Rule 1 is the primary one I follow... so with the hand you showed earlier...4S-1H-4D-4C, I open D, even with strong Clubs and weak diamonds. Why? If partner bids 1NT, I am going bid 2C (they have at lead 9 hearts, and partner has at least 4 in one of the minors). And over 1H by partner, I am going to bid 1S.

 

If I hold... S-KT H-QJx D-7642 C-AKJx I am going to open 1C, planning to raise 1H to 2, or bid 1NT over 1S. Over a 1D response I have to decide if I want to bid 1NT or raise to 2D.

 

And as an aside, with the hand you showed...

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

I rebid 1S over 1H.

[EricK]

If LHO is not going to bid then 1C can easily work out better (If partner has weak hand with Club support), and will often work out just the same (partner will bid a major and you will rebid 1NT).

 

But if LHO overcalls with 1M and partner makes a negative double then, if you have opened 1C, you will very often not have a satisfactory bid to make (no support for other major, no stop in LHO's suit for 1NT). If you have opened 1D then you can rebid 2C.

 

eg S xxx

H xx

D AKxx

C AQxx

 

After 1C (1S) X (P) what are you going to bid?

 

I think that this situation is common enough to swing the argument in favour of opening 1D on most of these hands.

 

If you have stops in the majors and strong clubs and weak diamonds, then you can open 1C and probably get away with a 1NT rebid in the above circumstance.

 

Eric

[JRG]

For what it is worth, many years ago in the time of Goren and the kind of Acol I played then, I learnt:

 

- With (4-4-4-1) shape "open the suit below the singleton"

 

So with 4-1-4-4, open 1 diamond.

 

By the way, why would you ever want to rebid 2C and not 1S? Surely there is nothing wrong with:

 

1D - 1H

1S

 

If partner now bids 1NT you can bid clubs, completing the description of your hand pattern. A friend of mine, the late Paul "The Whale" Heitner, who was a theoretician as well as expert bridge player, was absolutely convinced that showing hand pattern was more important than showing HCP (of course, being able to show both would be best!).

 

(4-4-4-1) hand patterns can be difficult to bid, which is undoubtedly why the Roman, Neapolitan, and Blue Team Club systems had opening bids dedicated to this specific hand pattern. If I remember correctly, The Roman Club system opened 2C on a (4-4-4-1) or (5-4-4-0) with one point count range and 2D on a different (higher) point count range.

 

I respect 2over1, but I'm in the camp that says reversing shows the first suit is longer than the second.

[hrothgar]

my hand is:

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

open 1d, after very likely 1h, rebid 2c? or

open 1c, after very likey 1h, reverse 2d?

 

Playing strong NT, I'd open 1NT

Playing weak NT, I'd open 1D and rebid 1NT

 

Looks like the smallest lie

[inquiry]

my hand is:

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

Playing strong NT, I'd open 1NT

Playing weak NT, I'd open 1D and rebid 1NT

 

Looks like the smallest lie

 

Ok, I am still new to this game, so someone will have to explain to me why so many people are bidding funny things after 1D-P-1H instead of simply bidding their BIDDABLE, four card spade suit?

[hrothgar]

my hand is:

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

Playing strong NT, I'd open 1NT

Playing weak NT, I'd open 1D and rebid 1NT

 

Looks like the smallest lie

 

Ok, I am still new to this game, so someone will have to explain to me why so many people are bidding funny things after 1D-P-1H instead of simply bidding their BIDDABLE, four card spade suit?

 

 

From my perspective, I don;t much fancy an auction starting

 

1D - 1H

1S - 1N

 

even

 

1D - 1H

1S - 2H

 

is dicey.

 

This looks like 15-17 HCP, balanced to me

I plan to describe it as such.

[JRG]

I'm with Inquiry on this one - as suggested by my previous post. Yes, NT may turn out to be the best contract, in which case not giving the opponents extra information about the hand may be advantageous.

 

HOWEVER, I dislike intensely going down in what could be a silly 3NT contract when I may make two, or even three, more tricks in spades (by ruffing the hearts they cash against me in NT.

 

While notrump-itis looks like it tends to gain, this is too much for me!

 

Cheers

John

[the hog]

Playing Acol, where a rebid of 1NT would show 15-16(or 15-18 or whatever), I would open this hand 1C and rebid 1NT, not 1S, over 1H. I play that 1S would show a hand with 5C and 4S, and I would expect that there would be hands on which my partner gives false preference to 2C on xx. As I do not enjoy playing 4-2 fits, I rebid 1NT.

Responder has the checkback means to discover whether a 4 card S suit exists, and I have defined my hand strength more accurately.

Note that if you are one of those players who is petrified at losing the 4-4 S fit in a weak hand,and it will ONLY happen if responder is a weak 4-4 or 4-5 in the Ms and passes 1NT, there is always the option available that 1m 2H shows a weak hand with 5H and 4S.

 

Playing SA or 2/1 with the given hand I would open 1C, rebid 1S over 1H, raise 1S to 3, and probably pass a 1NT response - depends on the spot cards. (With a 1444 I would open 1D and rebid 2C over 1S). Again I would prefer to rebid 1NT rather than 1S,as 1m followed by 1M should again show 5m and a 4M, however as this is limited to 12-15 I am somewhat loth to do so.

 

Playing a big C system, this would be an automatic 1NT rebid after any negative response to 1C.

[Codo]

Hi all,

 

Maybe I am too old for this game too. I could find no reason to rebid anything besides 1 Spade.

Lets look at the reasons:

 

"Pd plays me for 5 clubs and 4 Spades?"

 

Okay, but up to now no pd had a hand, where he corrected me to 2 Club with just two clubs. My imagaination is too small to even think about a hand, where I would do so after a bidding that starts with 1D-1H-1S.

 

"My hand looks NT-ish?"

 

Well, beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, but for me this hand looks like a three suiter. And as we all know, these hands do happen at the table in 2 % of the boards and in discussions about good bidding in 50 % of the time.

So with these three suited hands, I sometimes have to lie. My 1 Spade bid describes the hand as unbalanced with clubs and spades. Not the biggest lie I ever made.

 

"1D - 1H

1S - 1N"

 

Do I fear this? Why should I? Do I reach a different contract compared with an 1 NT opening or 1 D-1H-1NT? Not really, I just announced a very welcomed club lead into my AQxx.

 

"1D - 1H

1S - 2H "

 

This is a mess, for sure.

But compare it with other methods:

After 1 NT opening pd will transfer you in 2 Hearts.

After 1 m -1 H 1 NT pd will bid 2 Hearts

After 1 D 1 H 2 C pd will bid 2 Hearts.

 

So, there is exactly no difference....

 

Playing strong clubs, I still want to know, why this is an automatic 1 NT after a negative response.

Maybe just because strong club systems do have a problem with this hand type and any other bid would be a much bigger lie?

 

I think we all agree, that 1 D-1H-2C or 1 C-1-H-2D are out of the race, so it is just between a 1 NT and a 1 Spade rebid, right?

Okay, dear 1 NT friends, besides letting my pd play 1 NT once in a while and let the strong player put the strong cards on a strong table. What do I really loose while bidding my major?

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[luis]

I'm stunned! I can't believe the funny ideas there're with this hand :-)

Open 1nt, rebid a minor, open 1c, etc.

 

I would never have thought this was a problem, open 1d and then rebid 1 spade, very simple.

 

I'm not saying the other approaches to this hand are wrong, but they are weird to me and I wouldn't like see my pd waste his imagination in this hand...

 

"There will be many problems in this session to be solved, just try not to create new ones or we'll be more tired than the field for the last boards"

[the hog]

"Pd plays me for 5 clubs and 4 Spades?"

 

Okay, but up to now no pd had a hand, where he corrected me to 2 Club with just two clubs. My imagaination is too small to even think about a hand, where I would do so after a bidding that starts with 1D-1H-1S.

 

Jxx

xxx

KQxxx

xx

 

Over 1C 1D 1S to bid 1NT with this hand is an abomination. Pd is likely to have 1 or 2 H. They are going to run a number of H against you in NT. I would suggest that 2C is a far better contract - at least I have a chance of playing in a decent contract here. Modern tendencies in the bidding are to open or bid 1NT as frequently as possible, hence to avoid that contract shows a 5-4. Largely a matter of style, I suppose, but our philosophy is to show hand type as quickly as possible and to treat 4441s as semi balanced at least.

 

Okay, dear 1 NT friends, besides letting my pd play 1 NT once in a while and let the strong player put the strong cards on a strong table. What do I really loose while bidding my major?

 

Nothing but the chance to play in a decent contract, and to not misdescribe your hand type. That is also why I have a lot of sympathy for Hrothgar's 1NT opening. It is interesting that a number of the strongest pairs here have adopted this style.

[Codo]

Hi Ron,

 

thanks for your advice.

But I am not with you this time.

1. I assume, you still play walsh, else my answer is senseless.

 

2. In your example, you give the auction:

1 Club-1Diamond

1 Spade

 

Playing wlash, this will "always" show 5+clubs and 4+ spades. So here I agree, that 2 Club will bring you into a kind of fit.

 

But I doubt, that it will get you to the top spot.

 

After all, what does pd have:

1.He openend 1 Club.

2.He did not raise my diamonds

3.He did not rebid clubs

4.He did not bid 1 NT

5.He did not bid 1 Heart.

 

So, he can have just a few hand patterns:

5116 5035 5125 4135 4315 or 4045.

 

I doubt, that with any other hand, he had bid like he did:

With 4xx6, he had rebid his clubs. If I have spades, I will bid them next round.

With 42xx or 43xx he had opened or rebid 1 NT.

With 4414 he had rebid 1 Heart.

With 4144 he had openend 1 Diamond

 

So I think, that a 2 Diamond rebid is much better then 2 Club:

 

With all 5xxx hands, 2 spade is the right spot.

I think, that a 2 Diamond rebid will be followed by 2 Spade from pd.

With 4135 and 4045 2 Diamond is perfect.

 

So just with 4315 you loose with a 2 Diamond rebid.

A small price in my eyes, isn´t it?

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[the hog]

So, he can have just a few hand patterns:

5116 5035 5125 4135 4315 or 4045.

 

4225?

[hrothgar]

"Pd plays me for 5 clubs and 4 Spades?"

 

Nothing but the chance to play in a decent contract, and to not misdescribe your hand type. That is also why I have a lot of sympathy for Hrothgar's 1NT opening. It is interesting that a number of the strongest pairs here have adopted this style.

 

I will note in passing that Bobby Goldman strongly advocated opening 1NT with appropriate range even if the hand contained a singleton honor. His point, which I find very compelling, is that the 1NT opening is often the best of a number of bad choices.

 

The hand in question is a classic example:

 

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

If you open this hand 1D, you need a wide variety of prepared rebids. We have had some discussions about rebids after 1H, however, we also need to be prepared for a partner's 1S response or even 1NT. Treating this hand as something other than 15-17 balanced will put too much stress on the rest of the bidding system. Whatever rebid you chose will need to streached, with an ugly impact on your constructive bidding.

 

For example,

 

Suppose that the auction starts

 

1D - 1N ???

 

What is your planned rebid, and what do you consider a representative minimum and maximum hand for this call?

[luis]

Suppose that the auction starts

 

1D - 1N ???

 

What is your planned rebid, and what do you consider a representative minimum and maximum hand for this call?

 

My planned rebid is 2c. I don't know if it is right or wrong but I plan to bid 2 spades over pd's 2d bid.

I fully sympathize with the 1nt opening the problem is that it will be hard to determine if the hand belongs to nt or hearts due to the heart suit being blocked....

Example 1nt-2d;2h-3nt now what? Play 4h in the likely 5-1 fit or try our chances in 3nt ? Pd may have:

Qx, QJTxx, Qx, Kxx and 3nt can go down while 4h makes.... Difficult isn't it?

[flytoox]

"Pd plays me for 5 clubs and 4 Spades?"

 

For example,

 

Suppose that the auction starts

 

1D - 1N ???

 

What is your planned rebid, and what do you consider a representative minimum and maximum hand for this call?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1d-1n is exactly what happened at table. I leap to 3n

[hrothgar]

[quote author=flytoox link=board=2;threadid=595;start=0#msg3532

 

1d-1n is exactly what happened at table. I leap to 3n

 

 

Wonderful example regarding why the 1D opening is so badly flawed.

 

You hold a so-so 16 count, which you have just described as 18 -19 balanced.

 

Your hand is primarily Aces and Kings, which is a plus, however, the stiff Ace of Clubs significant degrades the hand. Furthermore, you have no long suits that you expect to run.

 

Partner's 1N overcall shows ~ 6 - 10 HCP and DENIES 4 hearts.

 

If partner is at the bottom of his range (he holds 6-8 HCP), you're likely to go down a lot. The opps are going to knock out your Ace of Heart of opening lead, get in with something, and starting running heart tricks.

If partner is at the top of his range, you will probably make, however, all this means is that you got lucky.

 

Better to open 1NT and provide partner with the information that he needs to make an intelligent decision.

[Codo]

Hi all,

 

3 NT is no good rebid at all. The idea to open 1 Diamond with 4-4 in the minors is, that you have an easy rebid:

2 Club

 

So this hand wonderful proofes, why you are better placed with the 1 Diamond opening compared with 1 NT.

 

Now you have a chance to go to 5 Club or 5 Diamond and avoid 3 NT contracts with no play.

 

A duty which is very difficult after a 1 NT opening without a full set of conventions.

 

For his bid, Pd has at most 6 cards in the majors, so you surely have a minor suit fit and they surely have a heart fit.

 

So why blast the bidding to 3 NT?

 

My rebid will be 2 Club. In most (all?) natural system, this bid is from 12-19 HCPs and pd should make another move with 8 or more points.

So, if you have game, you can decide, if you play 3 NT or 5 in a minor.

 

This is something you hardly can after opening 1 NT.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[badderzboy]

For those of us learning the game, the basics I have been taught would with the hand below would be

 

ACOL : 1C or 1D depending whether playing up the line or below singleton

SAYC : 1D 4+ in minors

 

If partner replies then 1S

In Acol: this can be 4 spades if followed by 1NT then 3C or 3D to show 16+pts and shows 4441 as all 3 suits bid!

In SAYC : Same 4 Spades else you would have opened 1S? unless 6-5 I suppose...

Could you not then show 3rd Suitwith 3C? Partner gets points and dist'n his choice of contract.

 

S: KXXX

H: A

D: KTXX

C: AQXX

 

As I'm only learning I would be fascinated in your advice as 4441 are the hardest hands to bid/play for us beginners!

 

thanks,

 

Steve

[the hog]

To bid 3 suits as you suggest Baddzerboy, is to significantly overstate the strength of this hand. You are forcing to the 3 level on a 16 count; partner only needs 6 to respond to your opening, and if pd bids H, she may have no great fit for you anyway.

 

As to Roland, opening 1D and rebidding 2C shows 5D and 4C, UNLESS you have the specific agreement that with a weakish ??45 you open 1D and rebid in Cs to solve that problem of that particularly awkward hand.

How are you going to proceed after 1D 1H 2C 2D, (which I have already shown could be on a doubleton)?

 

Someone once said, "Beware the 4441; they are hard to bid and do not play all that well either in suit contracts or in NTs". I can understand this comment - there is no 5 card suit to develop and frequently the singleton will be facing wasted honors. As I stated in a previous post, some have gone so far as to treat 4441s as balanced hands, opening 1NT with a singleton honor regardless of the NT range - 11-14 or 15-18. The fact that these are not easy to bid is shown by the number of posts made to what is not an uncommon hand.

 

For those players who believe that showing shape / hand type is of paramount importance in any intelligent bidding dialogue, bidding 2 suits shows 5-4 in 2 suits and denies a balanced hand. The corollory to this is to open whatever resembles a balanced hand with 1NT, (including hands with 5 card Majors, 6m in some 6223 etc). If you have a look at hands form the last few Olympiad books, you will notice that this trend is becoming more and more widespread. One of the best Rubber bridge players around, Michael Courtney, has long espoused this view. In the past his bidding theories have been regarded as idiosyncratic but now more and more top players are bidding this way. Here is an example of the Courtney style:

 

Quote from Peter Gill

WEST EAST

J754 K2

A932 KQ10754

Q10 J84

K64 A3

 

In the 1997 Cavendish playing against Krystof Martens,

Michael opened the East cards 1NT, in accordance with

the above principles (which were fully set out on our

Convention Card). I raised to 3NT; Q10 doubleton being

"two losers" in 4H or 4S but "useful assets" in 3NT,

according to Courtney theory. 3NT made easily, while

the field failed in 4H. Several of the world's top players said

that 3NT was the best spot but was completely unbiddable.

 

Another theory is that a 15-17HCP 1NT opening is better defined

as roughly 15-17HCP 4333 or 4432, OR 14-16HCP 5332 or 5422

(strong doubletons) OR 13-15HCP 6322 (decent 6 card suit) or

18HCP (doubleton AK or KQ with weak four card suits). "Roughly"

because this does not allow for variations based on vulnerability,

standard of the opposition, scoring method etc.

 

Note the hand - balanced with 2 strong doubletons, the 6 card M notwithstanding, this is a standard Courtney NT opening. With a 5332 he forgoes the requirement of 2 strong doubletons. 4441s are treated as balanced.