When to continue opposite an aggressive preempt?

[Jinksy]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt63hqdqt532cq96&n=sk972ha9842da74ct]133|200[/hv]

 

This hand's caused a bit of controversy between me and my P.

 

The bidding, (teams) goes

P P* 1C** 2D

X 4D P P

P

 

* On our current system is that we have to pass 10-11 counts with 5-4 in the majors. If we wanted to upgrade, the bid would be 2H (1H showing a significantly stronger hand)

**I think 1C promised 4+, but I can't remember for sure.

 

First Q:

Is 2D off the planet? We have the agreement that preempts opposite a passed hand are wide-ranging

 

Second Q:

What do you make of 4Ds, and the various alternatives? (2H not discussed in this sequence. After P P 2D(nat) P, it would just be to play, nonconstructive, and 2N or 3C would be constructive showing a max pass and good fit)

[Free]

With a passed partner anything goes. Although I think 2♦ is just bad bridge, it's 4♦ which is off the planet.

 

What do you open with K972-A9842-A74-J and with K972-A9842-A74-Q in 2nd seat?

[Jinksy]

What do you open with K972-A9842-A74-J and with K972-A9842-A74-Q in 2nd seat?

 

2H, though you might still pass the first one.

[wank]

both 2d and 4d are pretty bad.

 

the 2d bidder has a woeful offence/defence ratio. he doesn't want to be raised. he doesn't want to get doubled in 2D. what he should want is to defend and hope things break badly.

 

having the agreement that you can bid like a loon doesn't mean it's sensible to exercise that option.

 

as for 4D, what is he scared of? he's got both majors stacked and a reasonable array of high cards. it can easily be our hand opposite a wide ranging overcall, so why offer the opps a free 300 or something when the normal contract will often just be opps labouring away in a partscore with a dodgy break. clubs is the opps' most likely trump suit, but diamonds outrank those so he can just take things slowly and fight for the partscore.

 

fwiw i would assume any response to a wjo by a passed hand was fit/getting the right lead.

[aguahombre]

IMO, a set of agreements which doesn't allow us to open the North hand should be re-examined. North should not be faced with the situation where South thinks we don't have an opening bid and has, thus, messed around.

 

If we change it to make East dealer, so it is reasonable for North to have the hand he does, I would vote for a simple, Law-abiding 3D advance and let partner worry about how silly his 2D overcall was.

[Cyberyeti]

Do you have an opening bid that covers a classic-ish weak 2♥ ?

 

If so N should bid 2♥ over 2♦ (must be FNJ style), S bids 2♠ and you can play 3♠ (if N knows 2♦ could be what it was).

[GreenMan]

If I were North and had the agreement to pass all 11-counts, I'd "upgrade for the two aces" and call it a 12-count. Or for the 2.5 quick tricks. Easy peasy.

 

Those of us who watch the JEC matches regularly have seen that a sensible "sound initial actions" approach can be winning bridge. But that North hand screams to be opened in any system IMHO.

[ArtK78]

I would have thought that the only system in which the North hand doesn't open would be in Roth-Stone. Even in old-fashioned Goren, the hand has 13 points.

 

As for 2♦, that is bordering on a psyche.

[Cyberyeti]

As for 2♦, that is bordering on a psyche.

It's only a psyche if it's not what you've agreed, this is plenty for me to overcall 2♦ but I might well decide not to.

[Jinksy]

IMO, a set of agreements which doesn't allow us to open the North hand should be re-examined. North should not be faced with the situation where South thinks we don't have an opening bid and has, thus, messed around.

 

The normal alternative in Fantunes is to have 5-4 major hands open at the one level, on the theory that you can lose a fit in the other major too easily otherwise. My partner and I both decided that did more damage than it was worth to our constructive auctions. The range of 2-bid openings is nominally 10-13 (min 5431 distribution), so we decided to try only opening the ones that would make a positive (ie 12-13) rebid after a feature ask.

 

So you might decide this was worth giving a positive response to, which might be a different question to whether you agree with the system. I think I agree with my P's pass though, since you don't have much playing strength to offer if he doesn't show up with a decent major fit, and you don't particularly mind defending if it comes to that.

 

With another P I have the agreement that we open them all if NV (and third and 4th you can open them on a much wider variety of hands), only following the 'no side major' restriction if vul. So far both agreements seem to have worked pretty well.

[ArtK78]

From what I know of Fantunes (and I have played a version of it), the North hand is a 2♥ opening (admittedly an ugly one).

 

In my opinion, passing the hand is likely to get your side in trouble, but I don't have enough experience with the system to know for sure.

[aguahombre]

Yes, but I recommend not compounding the problems by bidding 2D over 1C with the South hand and completing the trifecta by raising to 4D.

[MrAce]

 

having the agreement that you can bid like a loon doesn't mean it's sensible to exercise that option.

.

 

:D

[gnasher]

I think 2♦ is OK as long as North understands that you might have this hand. Over a preempt opponents tend to get too high rather than too low, and with this South hand I'd be delighted to see them reach a thin 4M.

 

The key is to be on the same wavelength, If the South hand is a 2♦ bid, North shouldn't bid more than 3♦ with his hand. That may make, or it may talk opener into doing something unsucessful. I can't see why anyone would want to show some other suit on the North hand - it's very unlikely that we can make game, and bidding 2M just gives opener more space to describe his hand.

[Cyberyeti]

The key is to be on the same wavelength, If the South hand is a 2♦ bid, North shouldn't bid more than 3♦ with his hand. That may make, or it may talk opener into doing something unsucessful. I can't see why anyone would want to show some other suit on the North hand - it's very unlikely that we can make game, and bidding 2M just gives opener more space to describe his hand.

Because if partner's hand is x, Kxxx, QJ10xx, xxx I want partner to know he should be saving later (given the style of the WJOs).

[the_clown]

I think 2♦ is just terrible, I could understand it if 1♣ was strong or 2-way, but it would still be too much for me.

Agree that North should make a simple raise to 3♦, he shouldnt be worried if they bid game with both majors breaking badly.

[Zelandakh]

I wjo in this spot as aggressively as anyone I know but would generally not do so with this hand. The problem is that the ODR just does not fit for a hand with this many flaws. I do not much like 4♦ either. Opposite a wjo of the "anything goes" pressure school, I think it is pretty out there, with little upside and a major downside. The bottom line is that both players bid aggressively with low ODR hands. That is a recipe for disaster but you (and your partner) are in a better position than forum posters to judge which hand was closer to expectation for your agreements. If you disagree about what the agreement is then you need to sit down together and reach some kind of compromise.

 

I agree with others that the North hand should be opened, even in Fantunes. One of the points of the 2 level openings is that the opponents do not know what sort of hand you have - if they decide to come in at the 3 level they could easily be walking into an ambush. Also, on hands where competitive bidding is involved it is important to include the vulnerability; even more so when preempts are involved.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2D is ok, I have done it, I will do it again, although not always.

 

4D is just ..., you have 2NT to show a max. pass with a fit, a hand you happen

to hold, why not tell partner this?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Jinksy]

I agree with others that the North hand should be opened, even in Fantunes. One of the points of the 2 level openings is that the opponents do not know what sort of hand you have - if they decide to come in at the 3 level they could easily be walking into an ambush. Also, on hands where competitive bidding is involved it is important to include the vulnerability; even more so when preempts are involved.

 

In Fantunes' actual system, they'd open the N hand 1H rather than 2, presumably on the grounds that with both majors the potential downsides of preempting are greater, and the potential upsides smaller.

 

No matter how much I try to make it fit, I can't see a sensible way of making that work for a mortal partnership without screwing up your slam-seeking sequences (according to Dan O'Neill's transcription IIRC, over a 2/1 GF followed by a bid showing the other major, potentially as weak as this, they just continue the GF...). So our current compromise is just not to open these.

[Phil]

2♦ if kind of offbeat. If partner bids 5♦ later I would be concerned we are in a phantom. I don't mind a lead in nearly any suit so I might just shut up with this hand, and not even bid 1♦.

 

4♦ is stretching your range a little too far I think.

[Free]

In Fantunes' actual system, they'd open the N hand 1H rather than 2, presumably on the grounds that with both majors the potential downsides of preempting are greater, and the potential upsides smaller.

 

No matter how much I try to make it fit, I can't see a sensible way of making that work for a mortal partnership without screwing up your slam-seeking sequences (according to Dan O'Neill's transcription IIRC, over a 2/1 GF followed by a bid showing the other major, potentially as weak as this, they just continue the GF...). So our current compromise is just not to open these.

I used to play some version of Fantunes. There were lots of issues we were able to resolve (like 1m-2M GF with 5+M was awful in our opinion) and we experimented with 1M being either 11-13 with 5M-4OM or 14+ with 5+M. We couldn't make this work either. So we went back to opening these 2M and accepted the swings.

[Jinksy]

I used to play some version of Fantunes. There were lots of issues we were able to resolve (like 1m-2M GF with 5+M was awful in our opinion) and we experimented with 1M being either 11-13 with 5M-4OM or 14+ with 5+M. We couldn't make this work either. So we went back to opening these 2M and accepted the swings.

 

Did you ever try passing the weaker 5M4M ones? I haven't yet had a major disaster from it (this hand is probably the worst result in that we missed 3S, and opening 2H would have helped that). I can certainly believe opening them might work better, but if partner knows you could have those hands you seem to lose a lot of the downside of passing them - you're unlikely to be shut out of the auction if the hand belongs to your side.

[aguahombre]

Did you ever try passing the weaker 5M4M ones? I haven't yet had a major disaster from it (this hand is probably the worst result in that we missed 3S, and opening 2H would have helped that). I can certainly believe opening them might work better, but if partner knows you could have those hands you seem to lose a lot of the downside of passing them - you're unlikely to be shut out of the auction if the hand belongs to your side.

As a mere observer of methods where the given hand doesn't fit into a pair's opening bid structure, my opinion is that passing should be o.k. The OP scenario is not really a good basis for discussion of that issue, since what happened afterward was too weird.

[elwood913]

I play a fantunes style where:

1M is always 14+

2M is 10-13, any 6+ or 5+ w/ 4+ in a minor (but not some 5422)

2♦ is both M's. Typically 10-13, any distribution 5+/4+ in the M's (though 12-14, 4-4(41) is possible).

 

The given hand would fit perfectly into this opening.

 

We get some of our best results with the 2♦ bid.

If Resp has enough to ask we can find out about opener's specific distribution and strength, and these auctions are very good. If they don't, we often land in a reasonable 2M partscore and have enjoyed quite a bit of preemption. The overall effect is great. We get a few rotten scores, but the good games and slams, the wins in many partscore battles, and the relatively safe premptive effect when it's their hand far outweigh the few clunkers.

[WellSpyder]

I play a fantunes style where:

1M is always 14+

2M is 10-13, any 6+ or 5+ w/ 4+ in a minor (but not some 5422)

2♦ is both M's. Typically 10-13, any distribution 5+/4+ in the M's (though 12-14, 4-4(41) is possible).

Interesting. What do you do with the hands on which Fantunes would open 2♦, ie 10-13 with 6+♦ or 5♦+4other (not 5422)? With the bottom end of this range you could pass, I guess, but surely not with the top end?