OVERCALL OR NOT?

[mike777]

p=p=p=(2c)

?

 

both nv imp teamgame

 

AQT53.....Q6....J96...875

[aguahombre]

Very thoughtful to not show the name of the 2S bidder.

[Codo]

Okay, I am the second 2 ♠ bidder.

2♣ works so much better if undisturbed.

[the hog]

Seriously? You want to come in over 2C with that trash?

[ArtK78]

I have to admit that my first reaction to this post was similar to The Hog's comment. Yet we have 3 votes for the overcall.

 

I would never consider bidding with this hand. From the fact that the question is posted, I can only assume that the overcall was the right action at the table.

[ggwhiz]

This hand is so bad for offence if you change the spade ten into an x I can make a modest case to pass 1♣ let alone 2.

[kenberg]

Yes, I pass. All in all, I think that coming in may be of greater help to the opponents than it is to our side, even if we don't go for a number. Maybe once in a blue moon we have a good sac against 4♥. Unless an angel whispers in my ear, I wait until next hand to bid.

[Winstonm]

I think this depends entirely on agreements. If 2 over 2 is basically noisy interference that partner won't take too seriously, 2S is much better as the opps are not as quick to pull the trigger at the 2-level in this auction when it is difficult to determine how good of penalty double it is.

 

With a partner who won't hang me out to dry, I bid 2S. With others, I pass.

[akwoo]

At my club game, I might venture a bid simply because, if opps have ever discussed their agreements for handling interference over 2♣, they most likely have forgot. The ensuing confusion is fairly likely to gain me something. (Most of the time I won't bother because it does feel a bit unfair.)

 

Otherwise, this is an obvious pass.

[Finch]

I think it is obvious to bid and would always do so.

[lalldonn]

If I thought I would just get away with it I might chance it, but partner is not going to be on lead and I'm not very happy if he raises so I don't see much purpose against strong opposition who can take me for a number when it's right to do so.

[mr1303]

If this is the expert class forum, can I assume expert opponents? In other words, opponents who will have agreements about what to do when 2C is overcalled.

 

If that's the case, then I pass. 2S will frequently work against bad opponents, but that doesn't make it a good call. Half of the problem is that I will probably be on lead.

[Vampyr]

I think it is obvious to bid and would always do so.

 

I would be very interested to know your reasoning.

[MrAce]

There are a lot of factors to consider for our decision imo.

 

-Opponents are in GF auction most of the time. (good reason for interfere)

 

-Vulnerability w/w ( a reason to pass although not as suicidal as r/w)

 

-Pd will not try to hang us for finding game ambitions (+ reason to overcall)

 

- If you end up playing 2♠ doubled, this will be ugly, and pd will have no space at 2 level to run if your side has a better fit. (a reason to pass)

 

-Expert or not, it is hard to decide to punish your opponents at 2 level when you are in GF auction, especially not knowing that they overcalled with a flat hand (a reason to overcall)

 

-Pd will not hang us for game, but will often raise agressively and this may end up ugly, and this time due to our level it is easier for them to decide to wack (a reason to pass)

 

-We are holding 9 hcp, even if pd has zero, this place them at most with 31 hcp, so even if they (or our teammates ) have a slam, it may not be easy to be landed. So the risk/reward ratio should be reconsidered imo.

 

-Lead showing purpose; yes LHO may have 5-6 card red suit and would be bidding 3 ♥ or ♦ and they may end up playing game (or slam) in these suits, thus pd may be on lead. But that doesn not mean pd will not lead a spade, he may work his way out by listening to the auction. And even if he doesn't lead a spade that doesn not mean tey will always have a way to get rid of their losers. Again risk/reward ratio needs to be considered imho.

 

-Overcall may lead them to the wrong spot, or as said by another poster that it may lead to a better contract, we all saw both scenarios in our own experiences.

 

I am on the same camp with those who believes letting your good opponents, even the bad ones, have their constructive auctions will lead to losing a lot of imps. However on this hand i can not say either pass or 2♠ is insane. In fact the more i look at this hand and vulnerability, as a surprise to myself, i think i am convinced that pass is better. But i am definetely ok with 2♠ as well.

 

Having said that, there are 2 types of comments that i disagree with

 

1- Those who claims this is a 2 over 2 overcall, thus it is a "clear" pass and those who claims this is an auto 2♠ overcall regardless of our shape and vulnerability.

 

2-Those who claims pass is correct but they would have overcalled against "bad opponents" If this is a hand that you would normally pass, and if you are going to go out of your way, out of what you think is the normal action, then you should be doing this vs better players, not the bad ones imo.

[neilkaz]

This hand is so bad for offence if you change the spade ten into an x I can make a modest case to pass 1♣ let alone 2.

Agreed although I'd still overcall 1♣.

 

I can't understand bidding with this trash vs a good pair that has their agreements down. It may work in a weak club game or vs a pickup pair on BBO.

[Phil]

Unless our opponents are playing transfers over our competition, bidding sometimes gets hearts played by our LHO and puts partner is on lead. This may occur after either a direct 3♥ call by LHO or after a reopening double.

 

I think this happens frequently enough that it justifies the occasional 1100.

[kenberg]

Further thoughts:

 

A few weeks back I climbed into a 2♣ auction on not much. -300, if I recall correctly. Had I stayed out, the auction would have continued 2♦ on my left, 2NT on my right, passed out.

 

And it is not always the case that I want a spade lead here. Put Kx on my right, Jxx on my left, they may thank me for establishing their ninth trick. True they can do it themselves but it takes time and, without a hint from me, not exactly what you would call a promising line of play if entries to dummy are in short supply so declarer has to start by laying down the king.

 

Or, if I stay out, I may later be chalking up +50 as rho is explaining that it was a good contract, all he needed was for the spade queen to be onside.

 

The fact is, coming in will work sometimes and not other times. I'm sitting this one out. If partner wants to bid with these cards I won't shoot him.

[Codo]

Agreed although I'd still overcall 1♣.

 

I can't understand bidding with this trash vs a good pair that has their agreements down. It may work in a weak club game or vs a pickup pair on BBO.

 

 

Okay, so I guess you have a good set of agreements here.

 

Fine lets try it:

 

Here are some scenarios:

1. LHO has 5 hearts. Can you place the contract in rhos hand and know whether this is a 5-3 or 5-2 fit?

2. LHO has a singleton spade. Can you find out with some confidence below 4 ♥ that you have or miss enough values for a slam?

3.In my area a common system against interference is something like: X is the weak hand, pass is the GF hand. If you play such a (or a similar) method, how easy is it to punish us if opener has any kind of strong NT hand?

4. If opener has a hand with one or even two good suits, will it be easier for them to find out about slam/game and the right strain with or without 2 ♠?

 

I would be really interessted in your (or other experts) solutions, they do not look so easy to me....

[ggwhiz]

3.In my area a common system against interference is something like: X is the weak hand, pass is the GF hand. If you play such a (or a similar) method, how easy is it to punish us if opener has any kind of strong NT hand?

 

This is what I play and given that the most common 2♣ opener has a 2nt rebid, after double you may well be there or depending on openers spade holding bid to a superior partscore or game.

 

After pass, double by the opener shows a 2nt rebid with systems on for us and again it may well end the auction. Since the pass is a gf you are either already going or your pard may well raise (or both with this trash). If opener is looking at ♠Kx we rate to stop in a safe game but if it's responder we will try to lay a really thin slam on you.

[the hog]

Okay, so I guess you have a good set of agreements here.

 

Fine lets try it:

 

Here are some scenarios:

1. LHO has 5 hearts. Can you place the contract in rhos hand and know whether this is a 5-3 or 5-2 fit?

2. LHO has a singleton spade. Can you find out with some confidence below 4 ♥ that you have or miss enough values for a slam?

3.In my area a common system against interference is something like: X is the weak hand, pass is the GF hand. If you play such a (or a similar) method, how easy is it to punish us if opener has any kind of strong NT hand?

4. If opener has a hand with one or even two good suits, will it be easier for them to find out about slam/game and the right strain with or without 2 ♠?

 

I would be really interessted in your (or other experts) solutions, they do not look so easy to me....

 

Thats ok Roland; even if someone does not have good agreements they can easily take you for 700-900. Please continue bidding on these hands. (Especially if playing against me).

[PhilKing]

Pass. I have no one specific reason - there are too many to list.