Responses to 4th seat opening 2s?

[AyunuS]

http://tinyurl.com/cht9f5w

 

Apparently, 4th seat opening 2s can be made without having a weak hand, and then the responses to it aren't as though it's potentially stronger than a normal 2. And that's a pretty funny 3 of top 5 honors lol. It's only basic GIB but still, west has a very, very strong hand by weak 2 standards, and east no one else at the table had any idea.

 

Edit: The point is, they missed a game, and it doesn't seem like they had any way to even invite to a game after the opening bid. It seems to me that if such strong hands are allowed to make such an opening, there should be at least some way one of them can invite to a game.

[ArtK78]

Looks like a normal 4th seat 2♠ bid to me. It could even be slightly stronger.

 

My definition of a fourth seat "weak" two bid is a hand which you would open 1 and rebid 2 over any response.

 

Responses? If you want to invite game bid 3♠. If you want to bid game bid 4♠. If you want to do anything else you should probably give up the game.

 

[i guess there are exceptional cases, but this pretty much covers it]

[Antrax]

If you want to do anything else you should probably give up the game.

Ouch. We also have 2NT as an inquiry :(

[Stephen Tu]

To me the 7th spade and stiff makes it way too strong for fourth seat weak 2, I think one will miss too many games given that you are also opening on say 6322 10 counts. There is some contingent playing that 1S-1nt-2s is weaker hand than 2s opening in 4th seat (so "intermediate 2s" in 4th chair), but GIB isn't playing that.

 

To invite one can just use 2nt just like over other seats, just your range is altered.

[ArtK78]

Why would you have a 2NT inquiry? A fourth suit 2 bid is not a weak 2 bid. Why treat it like one?

 

What, exactly, would you be looking for in response to 2NT? Shortness, perhaps? A second suit? A concentration of strength? Clearly, whatever your responses are to your usual 2NT inquiry over a weak 2 bid do not apply over a 4th seat 2 bid.

[Stephen Tu]

Why would you have a 2NT inquiry? A fourth suit 2 bid is not a weak 2 bid. Why treat it like one?

 

What, exactly, would you be looking for in response to 2NT? Shortness, perhaps? A second suit? A concentration of strength? Clearly, whatever your responses are to your usual 2NT inquiry over a weak 2 bid do not apply over a 4th seat 2 bid.

 

Just because the range is stronger doesn't make it a completely different animal. You are still rather unlikely to want to have a natural 2nt available, it's unlikely to be a substantially better partial, and you aren't going to have a hand that has game interest that definitely wants to be in NT but not the major. So why wouldn't 2nt be artificial inquiry?

 

As for what to show, obviously that's up to discussion, and any of those things you mention seem reasonable. In any case, surely you have more room for accuracy in game tries if using 2nt rather than your proposed "bid 3s to invite game".

 

What are you arguing that 2nt should be, "I want to play 2nt?"

[cloa513]

I read that the standard range for a fourth seat 2 level spade or heart contract is one or two quick tricks short of game.

[Antrax]

Stephen Tu has it down precisely. We figured we never want to play 2NT there, and then figured the best use is as a sort of game try, since we still want to bid new suits at the 3-level naturally. We currently look for shortness (so 3♠ is just an "HCP" invite with scattered honors and a fit), but any of the other meanings also makes sense to me.