Offensive

[wyman]

From a discussion with friends over on the 2p2 boards:

 

2/1. Strategy at MPs? IMPs?

 

1H (P) ?

 

x AJxx Kxxxxxx x

 

In general, there are plenty of "I want to bid at least game, and I don't even want to take slam off the table, but between my 0 defense and my low HCPs, I feel like I shouldn't 2/1" situations. What's the current standard? I know there are some Bergen raise folk who put these into the "bergen-then-game" camp, and there are others for whom these are "forcing 1N, then 4M" bids.

 

But let's say I play a semi-forcing NT and no Bergen raises. Options for me include: 2N LR+, ambiguous mini-splinter, 2/1 in diamonds. What do you choose? And if you splinter and partner checks back, do you show the club or the spade stiff?

 

With a hand of this strength, how good would your side suit have to be to 2/1?

 

And lastly, what would you do if you made a 2/1, LHO bid 4S, and partner ripped it?

[manudude03]

I'd just bid 2D and pull it if partner doubles 4S

[billw55]

Immediate 3♠ splinter for me. In general my partner will expect more high cards for a 2/1 call.

[wyman]

Immediate 3♠ splinter for me. In general my partner will expect more high cards for a 2/1 call.

 

3S spades splinter or 3S ambiguous mini-splinter?

[Vampyr]

3S spades splinter or 3S ambiguous mini-splinter?

 

This hand is not a "mini-splinter". I prefer splinters to be 3 or 4 controls with not a lot of queens and jacks outside, and this is what I have.

 

A splinter should, IMO, be not strong enough for a GF raise, or else a monster that is going to bid on after partner's signoff. If you bid them wide-ranging with potentially wasted lower honours you are losing the main benefit of splinters, which is getting to skinny slams when the values are in the right places.

[gszes]

we have a large fit and easily enough power for game. Instead of

2/1 how about a nice jacoby 2n letting p in on the heart support

secret and your desire to be in at least game?? That way if lho bids

4s and p x you will not feel badly about bidding 5d which will let p

know why you bid j2n (long dia and hearts). Another advantage of

J2n is that you will want to down play slam efforts if p shows short

diamonds as the offensive value of your hand takes a big dip.

 

If your partnership is playing mini splinters many pairs adopt a 4c/4d

bid to show this type of hand immediately and the treatment works

very well.

[MrAce]

Immediate 3♠ splinter for me. In general my partner will expect more high cards for a 2/1 call.

 

:o

 

:huh:

 

:(

[billw55]

:o

 

:huh:

 

:(

I can only deduce that you disagree with my choice. You seem to also imply some degree of shock and dismay, but I can't be entirely sure. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[MrAce]

I can only deduce that you disagree with my choice. You seem to also imply some degree of shock and dismay, but I can't be entirely sure. Perhaps you could elaborate?

 

I agree with you that i was lazy and did not explain why. Sorry for that.

 

Having said that, yes i disagree and i was surprised too.

 

I mean i saw so many splinter suggestions in BBF that i thought they were not even close for a splinter but 7 card side suit and 2 singletons was a bit too much for me.

 

There are so many things why a splinter bid with 7411 hand is very bad. I can write a whole page for why we should not splinter when we have 2 singletons. I can sit down and write another 2 pages just because we have a 7 card side suit. I can sit down and write another page about this specific hand and try to explain why this hand is not an 8 hcp hand anymore (after pd opened 1♥)

 

I did not do any of these mainly because it would be a time consuming post for me, and probably i would have to write back and forth to other questions during this effort.

 

Anyway, since i decided not to get into any of these, perhaps i should have just kept my silence and not posted emoticons. Did not mean to offend you in anyway, all i was trying to show was my disagreement and surprise without having to write pages, give example hands etc etc.

[wyman]

So are you a 2D bidder Timo?

[billw55]

Anyway, since i decided not to get into any of these, perhaps i should have just kept my silence and not posted emoticons. Did not mean to offend you in anyway, all i was trying to show was my disagreement and surprise without having to write pages, give example hands etc etc.

No worries, I wasn't offended, just curious.

 

 

[MrAce]

So are you a 2D bidder Timo?

 

To be honest i would start with 2♦ IF i knew opps will be silent, but i highly doubt it. So i am not sure what is best tbh.

 

There are other things to consider about 2♦ ...I mean after 2♦ pd may have the wrong impression if we recieve some competition, when we have a good fit, probably a double fit (17 + cards in red suits) i am expecting some noise from them. This is what scaring me about 2♦.

 

-By the time auction comes in front of us next turn, we may find ourselves in a position where we could not even show our fit.

 

-And even if we can, pd may double them at some point relying on our 2/1 response, which puts us in a position where we have to decide. I mean yes we have a hand which has the strength to play a heart game, but we have to keep in mind that we are creating a forcing pass and this may not work very well in a competitive auction.

 

I said i am not sure what is best because without some prior agreements, all bids have their flaws. However i probably can live with everything but splinter on this hand. Sorry it is not in my blood to splinter with 7411 hand.

[aguahombre]

Yeh, also you would have to choose which splinter. Better to have 5-1-7-0, so there would be only one singleton to show.

[wyman]

So my initial reaction on this hand was to make a 2N LR+ (though decidedly not if we're playing straight up J2N).

 

But some accomplished players made it seem like this was a 2D wtp.

 

Agree that all bids are flawed, but 2D just doesn't feel right to me, so I wanted to hear from the crew here. Just trying to tune my instincts a bit.

[MrAce]

So my initial reaction on this hand was to make a 2N LR+ (though decidedly not if we're playing straight up J2N).

 

But some accomplished players made it seem like this was a 2D wtp.

 

Agree that all bids are flawed, but 2D just doesn't feel right to me, so I wanted to hear from the crew here. Just trying to tune my instincts a bit.

 

2♦ is definetely reasonable, considering our options.

 

"WTP" part is an overstatement imho

[billw55]

My issue with 2♦ is that partner may play me for more values, and start doubling ops if they get in the auction (they obviously have spades). Then again, it is not so easy for them to get into a 2/1 auction .. in fact a 3♠ splinter would likely make it easier.

[PhilKing]

I would bid 2NT (LR+) but I am sure my regular partner would bid 2♦.

[Phil]

I was given this hand by someone I did not realize hangs out at 2+2.

 

2♦ for me.

[mikeh]

Put me (firmly) in the 2♦ camp.

 

It is true that partner will make a decision over a blast to 4♠ based on an assumption as to our hand that doesn't fit what we actually hold but so what?

 

Does anyone have a bid that shows a 1=4=7=1 hand like this? I thought not: this hand type, being a freak, is not close to being prototypical for any short sequence.

 

If LHO is going to bid 4♠ after any other call, then we still won't know what to do should partner double...not even if we splinter!

 

In the meantime, what if he doesn't double? My guess is that we are going to be very happy if he makes a forcing pass, since that suggests diamond tolerance. Imagine a hand starting with Kxxxx Ax(x) in the reds. That's enough for the 5-level, and we know he has a much better offensive hand.

 

Meanwhile, if LHO doesn't stir things up starting with a gf call allows us to keep or put slam into view on a lot of hands, especially since partner will fall in love with the diamond A far more after 2♦ than after any other start.

 

I'm not 100% certain that my comment, if given the hand and not having read the posts to date, would have been '2♦, wtp' but it would be close :D

 

It isn't perfect but it seems to me to be far better than any alternative.

[nige1]

From a discussion with friends over on the 2p2 boards: 2/1. Strategy at MPs? IMPs? 1H (P) ?

♠ x ♥ A J x x ♦ K x x x x x x ♣ x

In general, there are plenty of "I want to bid at least game, and I don't even want to take slam off the table, but between my 0 defense and my low HCPs, I feel like I shouldn't 2/1" situations. What's the current standard? I know there are some Bergen raise folk who put these into the "bergen-then-game" camp, and there are others for whom these are "forcing 1N, then 4M" bids. But let's say I play a semi-forcing NT and no Bergen raises. Options for me include: 2N LR+, ambiguous mini-splinter, 2/1 in diamonds. What do you choose? And if you splinter and partner checks back, do you show the club or the spade stiff? With a hand of this strength, how good would your side suit have to be to 2/1? And lastly, what would you do if you made a 2/1, LHO bid 4S, and partner ripped it?

Whatever you do now, opponents are likely to be in 4♠ by the time the bidding gets back to you :( IMO at MPs or IMPS

• After 1♥ - ??: 4♥ = 10, 2♦ = 8, 2N = 7, 3♣ (minisplinter) = 6, 2♠ (minisplinter) = 5.
• After a minisplinter, you might as well show your other singleton.
• After 1♥ (_P) 2♦ (4♠); _X (_P) ??: IMO 5♦ = 10, 5♥ = 9, _P = 7.

[MrAce]

 

 

• After 1♥ (_P) 2♦ (4♠); _X (_P) ??: IMO 5♦ = 10, 5♥ = 9, _P = 7.

 

Bro...i know you have your own style of giving scores to bids that i may or not agree with, but.... I mean your pd opens 1♥, a major suit, you have AJxx support and you started 2♦, followed by LHO bidding 4♠, would you really hide that suit the second time and bid your 7 card suit, which by the way as decent suit as Kxxxxxx only ? Really ?

 

And you are giving it a 10 ? To me 5♦ should not even be in the poll, let alone having the top score. Can you explain me what i have been missing ?

[wyman]

I was given this hand by someone I did not realize hangs out at 2+2.

 

We are everywhere.

[nige1]

Bro...i know you have your own style of giving scores to bids that i may or not agree with, but.... I mean your pd opens 1♥, a major suit, you have AJxx support and you started 2♦, followed by LHO bidding 4♠, would you really hide that suit the second time and bid your 7 card suit, which by the way as decent suit as Kxxxxxx only ? Really ? And you are giving it a 10 ? To me 5♦ should not even be in the poll, let alone having the top score. Can you explain me what i have been missing ?

Controversial I admit and I could easily be persuaded otherwise. My fuzzy logic FWIW, was ....

• The game-forcing 2♦ reply was an overbid. (Mr Ace and some of my partners might choose it, hence the reluctant 8 marks).
• If you continue with 5♥ over 4♠, opener may expect a better hand (what an Acol player would term a delayed game raise or better).
• If you bid 5♦ over 4♠, you might argue No double no trouble.
• 5♦ may be playable. It may even be safer than 5♥ e..g. opposite ♠ x x x x ♥ K Q x x x ♦ Q J ♣ A x
• If opponents belong in a higher ♠ contract, they may be reluctant to bid on, unaware of our double fit.
• If (as is more likely) 5♦ is doubled, you can correct to 5♥ without promising the earth.
• Of course, passing 4♠X may be the lesser risk.

Wyman posed an interesting problem, and this may have brought Mr Ace back into the debate :)