Throwing out 2C control showing after StLuis

[jillybean]

My partner and I had recently changed our 2C response to control (A,K) showing but after missing a bunch of slams at SL

we have gone back to the standard (2D waiting etc) responses.

 

Showing controls after 2C while very descriptive seems to put the decision back on the 2C opener and we were getting stalled in

game contracts with the bidding too high, too quickly.

 

Is there anything we can do to improve our 2C bidding or is it better left.

[hrothgar]

Hi Kathryn,

 

I used to play Blue Club, which used control showing responses to strong cub openings.

 

In order to get full benefit from the control showing responses you need to spend lots of time developing fairly elaborate cue bidding agreement.

(If you already know control count, then blackwood and RKCB sequences become quite infrequent). In contrast, placing controls and finding extra length become quite important)

 

This style can be quite effective, but it requires a lot of work.

[Codo]

There is a reason why 95 % of all people did never met or abandonned "Albarran" and other control showing bids...

Richard has it right: They can work for the right hands and in the hand of someone who understands the later bidding. But it needs too much work to make it playable.

[han]

Congratulations Kathryn. Kickback comes next nationals?

[jillybean]

Congratulations Kathryn. Kickback comes next nationals?

LOL, nice to hear from you Han. We had no kickback disasters, we haven`t had any for a while now.

[Siegmund]

Perhaps you can share a few of the hands that gave you trouble? Only a handful of my partners have ever asked to play control-steps over 2C but it was a sound enough method I enjoyed playing it. Bear in mind I have always been a cuebidder not a Blackwooder, which may have helped, and you do have to have a willingness to use the 5-level for game vs slam decisions sometimes after a 2C opening, even after 2D waiting.

[TylerE]

I don't think it's nessesarily a bad method, if you have GOOD steps.

 

With one partner I play the following without complaint

 

A = 2, K = 1

 

2♦ = 0-1 controls

2♥ = 2 controls

2♠ = A + K

2NT = 3 K's, systems on

3♣ = 4 controls

3♦ = 5 controls

etc

[jillybean]

That is the system we were using but I`m not sure that we were playing systems on over 2N. I will try to dig through the hand records for examples, it would be a useful exercise for my p and I too but right now I need to get ready to go and play at the club. Maybe I will feel less intimidated than I did in those national events. :D

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Hamada Control System

 

Where 2C = 23+ or no more than 4 losers

 

then:

2D = 0 or 1 control ( A = 2, K = 1 control )

2H = 2 Controls (Can be 1 Ace or 2 Kings)

2S = 3 Controls (1 Ace and 1 King)

2NT = 3 Controls (3 Kings)

3C = 4 Controls (2 Aces or 1 Ace and 2 kings)

3D = 5 Controls (2 Aces and 1 king or 1 Ace and 3 Kings)

3H/S // 4C/D = Good 6+cd suit = KQJ10xx or AKJ10xx.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

• Bids after Responder gave controls [ 2D >> 3D ] are normal;

Now, 4NT asks for Queens: Responses are:

5C = no Q

5D = Queen in a minor suit

5H = Queen in a major suit

5S = 2 Queens ( same colour ).

5NT = 2 Queens ( different colour ).

6C = 3 Queens.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

• But after the "GOOD" suit bid [ jumps 3H/3S, 4C/ 4D ] , then 4NT asks for Aces.

[jillybean]

Board11, Mixed pairs

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak7hakqj6d98ckj5&w=s8653h95daq2ct963&n=sqh32dkt7653caq42&e=sjt942ht874dj4c87&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2sp3hp4dp4np5cp5nppp]399|300[/hv]

[Vampyr]

If you are including balanced 21-counts in your 2♣ opening you might want to consider playing Kokish. On the given hand you would have saved space had you taken the more mainstream view of the hand as balanced rather than a single-suiter in hearts.

[aguahombre]

There is a theory that if we don't use a bid as often, we will have less accidents arising from it.

[Trinidad]

There is a theory that if we don't use a bid as often, we will have less accidents arising from it.

Then it is probably best to pass throughout.

 

Rik

[hrothgar]

Board11, Mixed pairs

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak7hakqj6d98ckj5&w=s8653h95daq2ct963&n=sqh32dkt7653caq42&e=sjt942ht874dj4c87&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2sp3hp4dp4np5cp5nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I suspect that most people would favor treating this as a balanced hand and either opening in NT or rebidding in NT if possible.

 

5N isn't a contract that you want to play often, but I wouldn't be surprised if didn't score too badly

 

6D is down due to the trump losers

6N depends on figuring out that you have three spade tricks and four club tricks.

Most folks will have trouble placing the missing honors.

 

People who are getting there are probably doing so based on pure power.

 

North probably says: I have an 11 count and a six card suit. South has a balanced 22 count. Something is bound to work.

And, indeed it does...

 

2♣ - 2♦

2N - 6N

 

or something like that

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Is there anything we can do to improve our 2C bidding or is it better left.

Do you really open 2C on a balanced 21 hcp ?

 

Also, if 4NT in your auction was RKC, how can 5NT be passed ?

[ArtK78]

I find it hard to believe that the North hand would ever pass short of slam opposite a 2♣ opening. Even opposite this dead minimum (some would say sub-minimum) 2♣ opening slam is better than 50% (100% if played by North). Perhaps this North has seen some pretty dicey 2♣ openings from this South.

 

Personally, I like control showing responses to 2♣ openings. The initial response lets you know if you are limited to game or if you are in the slam zone. Here you know immediately that you have 10 controls and are thus in the slam zone.

 

I have to agree with Don that the South hand is a marginal 2♣ opening, and then only if it is treated as a 21 HCP balanced hand upgraded due to the strong 5 card suit - in other words, a 2NT rebid. I would never open 2♣ on the South hand if I were treating this as a one-suiter. After the 2NT rebid, even this North would bid a slam eventually, "knowing" that the partnership had 33 HCP.

 

Where I disagree with Don is the comments about 4NT and 5NT. I assume that the control responses being played are the usual ones - 2♠ shows and A and a K, and 2NT shows 3 Ks. So since South already knows that North has an A and a K, the 4NT, 5♣ and 5NT calls are all natural.

 

I have some sympathy for North in that South knows the control count and did not bid a slam. But still, unless this partnership has a history of some really bad 2♣ opening bids, North should still bid 6NT.

[jillybean]

Do you really open 2C on a balanced 21 hcp ?

When I judge that the hand is worth upgrading, yes.

 

 

Also, if 4NT in your auction was RKC, how can 5NT be passed ?

If 4NT was RKC, 5NT can't be passed. 4NT was natural.

 

I will try to find more hands later.

[aguahombre]

I suspect that most people would favor treating this as a balanced hand and either opening in NT or rebidding in NT if possible.

 

People who are getting there are probably doing so based on pure power.

 

North probably says: I have an 11 count and a six card suit. South has a balanced 22 count. Something is bound to work.

And, indeed it does...

 

2♣ - 2♦

2N - 6N

 

or something like that

 

 

Do you really open 2C on a balanced 21 hcp ?

 

First to Two4: I didn't think treating it as a bal 22 was necessarily offbase, and was a bit surprised when the KNR upgrading machine only gave it a 21.55.

 

I agree with hrothgar mostly. Something misdirected the auction from a Notrump sequence and combined power assessment.

 

Did the control-showing 2S response cause opener to rebid 3H instead of 2NT? I am a consistent supporter of staying out of opener's way with 2D most of the time so that the nature of the 2C opening can be shown. In this case, the 2S response didn't get in the way, but opener did with 3H.

 

Whatever route to the 2NT rebid, afterward responder will get us to slam. Hroth's short route, or some minor-suit probe ending in 6NT seems easy.

[neilkaz]

The issue here is not about system but rather about hand evaluation. North has heard South open 2♣ rebid ♥ and then show a balanced hand with 4NT and then try again with 5NT. North has a queen more than his control showing response showed and a 6 card suit. I strongly feel that North should expect 6NT to have decent enough chances to justify bidding it.

 

I like Don's Hamada Control method and in this case if 4NT asked for Queens, then South could bid the slam.

[wyman]

I think south should have started with 2C-2N, systems on. North has a difficult hand to bid. I'd probably have had the auction:

 

2C 2S

2N 3S (balanced and unlimited // relay to 3N, usually the start of a slam-inv minor sequence),

3N 4D (forced // natural slam try in diamonds)

4N 6N (denies Hx or better // to play)

 

Maybe others have methods by which they can show a minor 6-4, but I don't. I think that 5C over 4N would be a club Q, but I'm not sure I've discussed this with my partners.

 

I'm sympathetic to south wanting to introduce hearts, but it's not the choice I'd have made.

[wank]

obviously north needs a calculator. 11+2C = slam

[Vampyr]

Did the control-showing 2S response cause opener to rebid 3H instead of 2NT?

 

I wondered this as well, and I think that one potential problem with using control-showing responses is if the response dictates what kind of hand opener shows. If this is a hand that has been upgraded out of a 2NT opener, fine. If this is a hand that is a GF with hearts not so fine but whatever. I feel that it is best if opener decides what sort of hand he has and shows it no matter how many controls partner has admitted to. Either that, or maybe opener can ask about responder's hand with a series of relays.

 

In any case, perhaps responder has seen this sort of auction before -- where a 3♥ rebid says not "I have a game-forcing hand with hearts" but "I have hearts, and your values combined with mine will be enough to make a game". This bidding-both-hands approach may be playable, I don't know; it seems to me that it involves a lot of guesswork on responder's part. And what does opener do when he really has a GF single-suited hand?

 

Some variety of 5-card Stayman would be a useful addition to the system, so that South can make the normal 2NT opener or rebid without worrying about missing hearts if it is the best spot.

 

PS Would we be having this discussion, and would everyone be so keen to get to slam, if E/W's diamonds were reversed?

[aguahombre]

PS Would we be having this discussion, and would everyone be so keen to get to slam, if E/W's diamonds were reversed?

Yes we would because it is a quantitative hand. But, maybe someone would be resulting a way to make North the declarer :rolleyes:

[hrothgar]

PS Would we be having this discussion, and would everyone be so keen to get to slam, if E/W's diamonds were reversed?

 

We still have 12 cashing tricks and the opponent's have no obvious reason to lead diamonds, so yes...

[kenberg]

I have been playing controls with one partner. We play that 2♠ shows either three kings or one king and one ace. In theory this could be ambiguous but in fact it never has been. In fact we get a little more clarity on the posted hand because 2♣-2NT shows an AK in the same suit. So here we can clearly identify the holding as the ace of clubs, not diamonds, and of course the king of diamonds. I'm not sure I am all that big on controls as a method, but I also am not so sure that the method was the problem here. One should try alternative agreements and see how they go.

 

Suppose it starts 2♣-2♦(waiting)-2NT. Are we better off? Wyman provides an answer with 3♠ as a relay to 3NT, the start of a minor suit slam try. This looks fine, if you have that agreement. Otherwise you are sort of stuck, since presumably 3♦ shoes hearts. So does 4♦. Richard suggests 2♣-2♦-2NT-6NT. Certainly a possibility.

 

Me, I probably open this with a perhaps cautious 2NT. Maybe partner bids 6. Or at least an invitational 4. Maybe not.

 

 

Suppose it begins 2♣-2♦(waiting)=2♥. If we are playing Kokish then it will take another round before I have clarified that I have hearts, so we are probably worse off than with the controls auction. If we are not playing Kokish then at least partner knows right off that I have hearts. But who does what to get us to 6NT, and why could s/he not have done it after the controls auction?

 

 

It's always easy to come up with an answer looking at four hands, but it seems to me that, as the auction went, over South's natural 4NT North should either bid 5NT or 6NT, his/her choice. I would think that 5NT is pick a slam, not a passable invitation. It gives opener the option of suggesting 6♣ or perhaps 6♥. From responder's viewpoint there is no reason on the auction why opener cannot have a stiff diamond. But maybe just raise 4NT to 6NT.

 

My point is not to cricize either partner for their choices. We all make choices, some work, some don't. But at least with this hand, I don't think that control responses were the problem.