wasn't clear to me

[kenberg]

Matchpoints, I am South

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak5ht5dkt9632cq3&w=sq42ha743dq8ckj87&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1cp1s2ddp2spp3ddp3sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

OK, I am on lead, I do have trump control, I decide to go for a third round ruff and leat the T of hearts.

The play goes

T-4-Q-K

♠9-K-2-6

♥5-3-6-J

♠3-A-4-T

 

Oops, had I played low at trick 2 perhaps partner would have scored his ten. Mea culpa.

 

But now.

 

If partner has two aces or no aces it probably doesn't matter what I do but assume, and it is true, that he has one ace. Where? Is it clear?

[aguahombre]

Didn't partner give you SP with his trump plays?

[kenberg]

I had not thought of the trump plays as suit preference.

 

 

Our agreements were: Standard honor card leads and 3/5 length leads against suits. W/o discussion, I assume standard carding with spots.

 

On that basis, I would assume the heart Q at trick 1 allows for the possibility that the T was from KT9, so that is ont suit preference. Perhaps I should consider the trump plays as suit preference but I didn't. So I am left with subsequent play in the hearts, and whatever I might be able to make of the auction.

 

Or so I think.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Didn't partner give you SP with his trump plays?

Newspaper bridge columnist, Phillip Alder made a point in one of his recent columns about using "wasted" cards in the trump suit to show suit preference.

 

If partner considers the 10 6 doubleton trump of no value, then he would have shown ♣-SP by playing the 6 then 10.... and vice versa for ♦ .

[the_clown]

I dont know about the trumps, but the second heart play should be 100% SP. From the cards we cant see 2689 partner played the 6. So I would play him for the club ace. I would be wrong only if partner had exactly 26Q

[kenberg]

I did return a club, it wasn't a success. I got to thinking later that if partner has the ace of clubs we probably are not beating this: Club to ace, I get my ruff, what do I do for an encore?, But it's mps. and if indeed partner has the ace of clubs and I play a diamond it will be -170. Partner had the heart 9 and 8 so the 6 was not his most helpful play.

 

 

I'm not grumbling, I can see partner's reluctance to part with the heart 9, maybe the AK are my only spades, but had he done so I would have found the Diamond lead. Anyway I found the full hand interesting for several reasons so I'll post it. This is not the expert forum and so others may find it of interest also.

 

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak5ht5dkt9632cq3&w=sq42ha743dq8ckj87&n=st6hq986da54ct942&e=sj9873hkj2dj7ca65&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1cp1s2ddp2spp3ddp3sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

 

 

About the trump suit: It was not completely clear to me, at least early on, that declarer had five spades. He bid 1♠, his partner made a support double, if he is 4=3=2=4 he does what? With decent spades, I assume he bids 2♠ and hopes to cope. But of course I have the AK and dummy has the Q, so probably he has five. Still, we have to consider the double of 3♦. When 3♦ got doubled, I figured E for four spades and decent values. I am not at all sure I would pull the double with W's hand. 3♦ is an easy make though, so he did the right thing,

Anyway, the defensive plays in trump may very well be count cards, no? Declarer could be in a 4-3 and if he is, we should know about it. I have never played SP in trumps and, honestly, I am a bit skeptical.

 

The hand worked well for them. We can make 3♦, we should have beaten 3♠ and didn't. Me, I am not so sure I would double 3♦ with the East hand, and I am not so sure I would pull a double with the West hand. In defense of this timidity I note that 3♦ makes, and 3♠ could be doubled and off 200. But then it wasn't doubled, and it wasn't set, so what do I know.

[aguahombre]

So, we are trying to guess, when partner gave no help. If he had 3 spades, he should still give you help via the 10-6

[jdeegan]

Matchpoints, I am South

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak5ht5dkt9632cq3&w=sq42ha743dq8ckj87&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1cp1s2ddp2spp3ddp3sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

OK, I am on lead, I do have trump control, I decide to go for a third round ruff and leat the T of hearts.

The play goes

T-4-Q-K

♠9-K-2-6

♥5-3-6-J

♠3-A-4-T

 

Oops, had I played low at trick 2 perhaps partner would have scored his ten. Mea culpa.

 

But now.

 

If partner has two aces or no aces it probably doesn't matter what I do but assume, and it is true, that he has one ace. Where? Is it clear?

[jdeegan]

:P You didn't overcall 1♦? Or even 2♦? Wtf do you think is going to happen if you leave partner in the dark?

[kenberg]

:P You didn't overcall 1♦? Or even 2♦? Wtf do you think is going to happen if you leave partner in the dark?

 

??

Are we having a failure to communicate here?

Yes, I held six diamonds and I overcalled 2♦.

What am I missing here?

[the_clown]

I did return a club, it wasn't a success. I got to thinking later that if partner has the ace of clubs we probably are not beating this: Club to ace, I get my ruff, what do I do for an encore?, But it's mps. and if indeed partner has the ace of clubs and I play a diamond it will be -170. Partner had the heart 9 and 8 so the 6 was not his most helpful play.

 

 

I'm not grumbling, I can see partner's reluctance to part with the heart 9, maybe the AK are my only spades, but had he done so I would have found the Diamond lead. Anyway I found the full hand interesting for several reasons so I'll post it. This is not the expert forum and so others may find it of interest also.

 

 

 

If your AK♠ are your only spades you would probably lead something else than a doubleton

[kenberg]

Yes indeed, I realized this after I posted. Going for a ruff, by starting with the heart ten holding AK tight, would be seriously weird unless I think that partner has the Qx. Not likely.

 

When I posted, I had not thought at all about trump plays as SP. I know that people do it, I don't know that it has become expert standard, although I don't know that it hasn't either. It would seem to me that one would want to have some clearcut rules about when it applies, when it doesn't. Surely signalling trump length is important in some situations.

 

But sure, the second heart play is SP, or so I think, despite having to give up a potentially useful high spot. The potential is an illusion, vanishing after the ruff.

 

Back to the other calls. Lately I find myself most interested in looking at close decisions. I am not sure exactly what E intended with his double. My own view is that it should show a belief that 3♦ can probably be beaten. If he just wants to compete to 3♠ he could just bid 3♠. If, as I think appropriate given his hand, he is not sure if 3♦ can be beaten and not sure if 3♠ can make, passing would seem to be a good choice. As West, after the double, I would probably go with partner's suggestion that we play for penalties. It's mps, and +100 would not score well against the +110 we were expecting for 2♠ making.

 

I am curious as to what others think of the double and the pull.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I had not thought of the trump plays as suit preference.

Here is a reply by Justin from a March 6th thread :

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/58938-another-signaling-question/

Another Signaling Question Showing Suit Preference in Trumps

 

JLOGIC : " Most important signal in bridge outside of your trick 1 signal " .

[gszes]

2 things---

first (while your p has a strong idea you are looking for a ruff you do not know that)

why did you not win the first trump with the A followd by the K to let p know you

want a ruff?? There may be many reasons for leading the heart T playing the trump

A followed by K lets p know u want a ruff.

 

others have mentioned the advantage of using the trump suit for suit preference vs trump

suit count, strongly consider it. On this hand p had an easy play of the heart 9 to give suit

preference since the lead of the T gives the heart suit away and they still maintain a 4th

round tenace against the 7. This will not often be the case and using the trump suit for

suit preference is much more valuable.

 

second when you need to make a blind decision (should be fairly rare) there are 2 ways to go

One is to take the shot that gets you the best score the other is to try and avoid giving anything

away. Both have advantages and your decision should be made pimarily on how the hand has

been bid/played so far and chances of overall success. Here the play of a club offers a small

advantage while a dia switch offers a huge chance of success. On this hand (where the hidden

heart 2 makes your decision more blind than usual) go with the dia.

[aguahombre]

I would be wary of trying the spade ace first to try to bring heart-ruff intentions to pard's attention. It might give her the impression that you don't have the king and won't be able to get in again before trumps are drawn. I think we just have to hope partner understands our plan.

 

Regarding the use of the trump suit for SP, we don't really have to have that as an expressed agreement. It is the only suit being played where I am sure pard's spots can be recognized as a signal, and partner's own count in the suit doesn't seem like something I need to know when I am the one trying to get a ruff.

[kenberg]

Comments on the comments:

 

gszes:

It never occurred to me to play my trumps A,K instead of K,A. I think that I should have. I can pretty much anticipate the way the play will go. I lead the heart ten, I take the first trump, planning to lead another heart and then fully expecting that declarer will play another trump, that I will rise, and that I will try to find my partner's hoped for ace and get a ruff.. PLaying my trump A then K may or may not successfully get the message across, but it's what I should have done.

 

General:

It seems clear that declarer has at most five trump. Surely with six he would have bid 3♠ over 3♦ rather than double. I still think that, on the auction, it is at least possible that he has a 4=3=2=4 shape. But never mind, playing A then K should emphasize the ruff.

 

Two4, Aqua and others on SP in trumps

Justin's comment about SP in trumps gets my attention. I can be stubborn, but at least I will give it some thought.

 

gszes

Given that it is mps, I think I have to go with playing on whichever ace seems more likely on the evidence available. If declarer holds the ace of clubs, and I lead a diamond, -170 seems quite possible. At imps, maybe I try the diamond anyway on the grounds that if partner holds that ace then we beat the contract while, if he holds the club ace a club probably just holds it to 3.

 

 

LOTT: I am not a big fan of LOTT, but here it is right on the money. Seventeen total trump, seventeen total tricks (if no one screws up). Unlike with a lot of LOTTs, the inferential counting of total trump can be done fairly confidently. Maybe, at mps, I am supposed to double 3♦. And then I am supposed to beat it.

[JLOGIC]

 

Two4, Aqua and others on SP in trumps

Justin's comment about SP in trumps gets my attention. I can be stubborn, but at least I will give it some thought.

 

 

Seriously, look at this hand, the only important thing is where partners entry is. For every card he gives not to be suit preference given that is bad. He has had like 3 chances to signal, and you are still trying to guess where his ace is. That is really bad.

 

I used to think signals were not that important since almost every hand can be figured out without them. That said, I was wrong, signalling is super important and the main reason that top pairs defend so well now relative to everyone else. Every card they play early in the hand gives their partner some info so that they are rarely guessing.

[han]

When I posted, I had not thought at all about trump plays as SP. I know that people do it, I don't know that it has become expert standard, although I don't know that it hasn't either.

 

I think that it is standard and suit preference is not for experts only.

[kenberg]

Well, I seem to be getting strong opinions form strong sources. I have generally avoided Lavinthal and o/e first discards. Reasons:

 

1. Early on, I might not yet be sure what switch I want

2. When I am sure, I often don't want to tall anyone, and just let partner figure it out.

3. Usually when I am sure, and when I do want to send a message, there will be some reasonably unambiguous card that will wake partner up. Not always, but often.

 

The same reasons would apply in trump suit preference, perhaps even more strongly because the signal is apt to occur earlier in the hand.

 

Of course there are key times, such as in the OP. One hand wants a ruff, and this will happen only of the entry can be found in the other hand.

 

I do not at all want to appear dismissive of this advice. I appreciate it. I'm slow to change.

[Wackojack]

Presumably you were not playing Rosenkranz redoubles. If not what would a redouble have meant after west's double? Not too risky is it?

[kenberg]

Presumably you were not playing Rosenkranz redoubles. If not what would a redouble have meant after west's double? Not too risky is it?

 

We were not playing Rosnekranz. In this particular case, we were basically playing "2/1 pard? OK". I don't usually play Rosenkranz even with players that I have more extensive agreements with, but it would have worked well here providing I can resist the temptation to then lead a diamond a trick 1. W/o discussion, I would think XX suggests that we get our butts out of Dodge. Not that I would often make such a call. I figure if pard comes in with 2♦ he is supposed to be prepared to play 2♦ opposite my stiff. Still, I could have 0 diamonds and lots of clubs and hearts. And few points for the initial pass. So it could happen.

 

Anyway, XX would have confused me.