St Louis Appeal No 2

[aguahombre]

hrothgar as well. And the site knows it is impossible for me to read something before it is posted, so it remains "unread".

[Vampyr]

Sorry, Vamp. The site won't let me double plus.

Ah, but it if were up to you, would you prefer that or getting our downvotes back?

[aguahombre]

Ah, but it if were up to you, would you prefer that or getting our downvotes back?

Neither, really.

[lamford]

However, the more important consideration is that we have, by ignoring this Law, played a sensible game of bridge these past six years (at least when insufficient bids are not involved!)

Well, we apply Law 16B exactly when both halves of a partnership are playing the same system; when they are not, directors (and the White Book) rule that you must continue to alert according to your system, but bid according to what you thought the system was. The game is actually more sensible if you continue to bid according to the actual system, and you are stuck with your misbid. There seems a desire among TDs worldwide to punish the player who forgets the system twice. Once for his misbid, which will generally cause chaos anyway, and again because he must not become aware that he has misbid. Despite Law 16B specifically telling him that he must choose LAs using his actual methods. And if he does remember the methods he must be "failing to carefully avoid taking advantage of the UI", even though he is following 16B to the letter.

 

As more and more wrong decisions are being taken by directors in UI cases, it is time for TDs to follow the Laws exactly as they stand, or there is no point having them at all. If the WBFLC wanted you to bid according to some other methods, they would say so. They saw fit to issue an interim change regarding a mechanical error which you learn about from UI, so applying 16B exactly is not illogical.

[Vampyr]

The game is actually more sensible if you continue to bid according to the actual system, and you are stuck with your misbid.

 

You really think that it is better for a player to be woken up to his actual system by partner's alert or explanation?

[aguahombre]

You really think that it is better for a player to be woken up to his actual system by partner's alert or explanation?

And he thinks we are empty vessels making a lot of noise, as well.

[lamford]

You really think that it is better for a player to be woken up to his actual system by partner's alert or explanation?

No, I think it is better that LAs are decided using the methods of the partnership perceived by the player with UI. What you are arguing is "changing Laws and Regulations". I agree that 16B should be changed to reflect the way TDs misrule at present. And I think it is better that somebody timewasting in football by standing on the ball at the corner flag is punished. The difference between football and bridge is that referees in football generally follow the exact wording of the Law. In bridge, certainly in the case of 16B, they ignore that wording if it does not accord with their view of fairness.

 

Your argument that the present wording is unworkable is not correct. It just leads to a different ruling in many UI cases. Currently the player following 16B exactly is often punished. That cannot be right.

[c_corgi]

... It just leads to a different ruling in many UI cases. Currently the player following 16B exactly is often punished. That cannot be right.

 

Doesn't it [Lamford approach] get tangled up with L73 and lead to an error message?

[lamford]

Doesn't it [Lamford approach] get tangled up with L73 and lead to an error message?

I argue that following 16B exactly cannot be a breach of L73, or we could have a situation that if the only LA is a breach of L73, and all the other possible bids are demonstrably suggested, the person cannot make a call.

 

The only sensible way to interpret a general Law is "except as specifically indicated in another Law". RMB1 thinks that Law 73 was accidentally left in when they rewrote 16B. I don't think it can ever override another Law. Let us say that Pass uses some UI, but Pass is forced by 31B, I hope you are not suggesting that Law 73 overrides it and the person should ignore 31B and bid something!

[richlp]

OK, my watch and computer both make it 16.51.45 as I type this. Let us see. Looking at the time stamp here it seems 6 minutes out. I shall try at home later and see if it makes a difference. Interesting! http://time.is/ confirmed my time (within 4 seconds).

 

On reflection, it is obvious that the fault is with BBO, as the true time was indeed 16.51.45, but 11.58 was displayed (presumably Eastern Time).

 

While on this subject, someone in a state with an Eastern coastline in the US was on the phone to a friend in a state with a Western coastline of the US. He asked his friend the time and was surprised to find it was exactly the same as his. How so?

 

Florida.

[lamford]

Florida.

That is one of the two states. His friend was in the part of Oregon that is Mountain time, during the hour Florida was changing to Daylight Saving Time.

[mycroft]

Aleutians?

[barmar]

Alaska and Hawaii.

[bluejak]

The appeal was mainly about the later auction, but the appeals committee commented "South ... passed 2♠ when the UI had suggested otherwise."

 

Do you agree?

No. Now you know you have shown the majors bidding 3♦ may get you to 4♠ doubled. Passing is clearly suggested by the UI.

 

I'm leaning towards a PPPP - Platinum-Plated Procedural Penalty.

Me loikes that ....

 

While on this subject, someone in a state with an Eastern coastline in the US was on the phone to a friend in a state with a Western coastline of the US. He asked his friend the time and was surprised to find it was exactly the same as his. How so?

Alaska and Hawaii [half the year only].

 

I was really annoyed to find that barmar had just posted that!

[barmar]

I was really annoyed to find that barmar had just posted that!

If over 3 weeks ago counts as "just".

[lamford]

Alaska and Hawaii.

I didn't think you were being serious with this answer, but note that bluejak also posted it. I think Alaska is either one or two hours ahead of Hawaii, depending on the half of the year, so the time cannot be the same there. And you would hardly describe Hawaii as "having an Eastern coastline of the USA", although I suppose you could.

 

The answer I believe to be Oregon and Florida. One is in Malheur County, Oregon, the only county in Oregon to observe Mountain Time. The other is in the panhandle in Florida, say Tallahassee, which is Central Time. Currently, as I type, it is 11.42 Central Time and 10:42 Mountain time. For one hour, when Florida switches over from daylight saving time, the times will be the same.

[ArtK78]

Hawaii Standard Time and Aleutian Standard Time are the same. Hawaii is on Standard Time all year, but the Aleutians are on Standard Time only part of the year.

[lamford]

Hawaii Standard Time and Aleutian Standard Time are the same.

OK, I had not thought of the Aleutian Islands. You could argue that any island has both a West coast and an East coast of the USA, so I think I should have phrased the question as having a "mainland" East coast and "mainland" West coast, or there could be multiple answers. I would not consider Hawaii to have an East coast of the USA anyway.

[barmar]

My answer was based on islands having both east and west coasts. But now I agree with lamford that this isn't really fair (see, it's occasionally possible for him to change my opinion).

[aguahombre]

My answer was based on islands having both east and west coasts. But now I agree with lamford that this isn't really fair (see, it's occasionally possible for him to change my opinion).

And frightening when it occurs?

 

I remember Mycroft being so scared when I agreed with his post that he changed his opinion, knowing he must be wrong.

[mycroft]

Hey, that's mean. Not frightened, as much as...confused.

 

 

Yes, of course this - and the original reference - is a joke. I hope this was obvious; if it wasn't, I truly apologize.

 

[Vampyr]

Yes, of course this - and the original reference - is a joke. I hope this was obvious; if it wasn't, I truly apologize.

 

Sure, but lamford should have said "an East Coast state" or "a State with an Atlantic coast".

[GreenMan]

I repeat someone's earlier observation that Florida itself has both an east coast and a west coast, though the latter is more often called the Gulf coast.

 

One may also note that part of Alaska is in the Eastern hemisphere, so it may be said* that it has an east coast in that section.

 

*Just try and stop me!

[blackshoe]

That part of the state of Alaska which is in the Eastern Hemisphere (i.e., west of the 180th meridian, consists of some of the Aleutian Islands. No part of mainland Alaska is in the Eastern Hemisphere.

[barmar]

And of course the International Date Line takes a sharp turn to the west when it runs into those islands, so the date doesn't change when you hop from island to island.