Unusual hand

[Wayne_LV]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqjhakq75d6ck863&n=st4h8dat53caqjt94&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p]266|200[/hv]

Playing 2/1, how would you bid these hands?

To see actual bidding and play click http://tinyurl.com/d5xuust

[mike777]

1h=1nt

3c=4d(rkc in c)

4h=5d(grand try, k ask)

7c(at the very worst on a spade finesse if h dont run)

 

 

btw pard must have some long clubs to jump to 4d over 3c which could be a 3 card suit.

[aguahombre]

1H-1N

3C-3S! Impossible and huge for clubs within the limits of the forcing notrump.

 

I don't like the 4D Kickback instead of 3S by responder because of my silly aversion to wooding with a side XX.

 

After the 3S, opener can use Minorwood or whateverwood available, and then make the King-ask, knowing responder cannot have any kings; it serves as an invite to the grand which responder will accept because of the extra club.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1H-1N

3C-3S! Impossible and huge for clubs within the limits of the forcing notrump.

I like the "Impossible Spade " application here.

Too bad there isn't something similar for a 1S open :

1S - 1NT!

3C - ??

[ArtK78]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqjhakq75d6ck863&n=st4h8dat53caqjt94&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p]266|200[/hv]

Playing 2/1, how would you bid these hands?

To see actual bidding and play click http://tinyurl.com/d5xuust

 

Playing 2/1 GF except when responder rebids his suit, this is very easy:

 

1♥ - 2♣*

2♥** - 3♣***

4♦**** - 5♣

7♣

 

* - game forcing unless next bid is 3♣

** - waiting - want to see partner's next bid

*** - not forcing but guarantees 6 clubs

**** - kickback (RKCB) (can virtually guarantee 13 tricks if partner has two aces - ♣Q would be nice, too, but if you are missing the Q but have the J and 10 you will survive almost all the time)

 

In the actual contract, you were lucky to avoid a diamond lead. Hate to go minus on the hand. Last bid made was brainless.

[aguahombre]

I like the "Impossible Spade " application here.

Too bad there isn't something similar for a 1S open :

1S - 1NT!

3C - ??

I don't like it as well, but we use 3D as either/or.. natural or huge for clubs; and it has gotten ugly a couple times because an extra step is necessary to determine strain.

[Codo]

1♥ 2 ♣ (Gf unless rebid)

3♣ 3♦ (GF, control)

4♣ 4 ♦ (KC, Min for a GF)

4♥ 5♦ (KC 2+Q)

5♥ 6 ♣ (Kings? no)

7 ♣

 

So worst possible hand for a 2/1 from partner is now something like xxx,xx,AQx,AQxxx...

[aguahombre]

1♥ 2 ♣ (Gf unless rebid)

3♣ 3♦ (GF, control)

4♣ 4 ♦ (KC, Min for a GF)

4♥ 5♦ (KC 2+Q)

5♥ 6 ♣ (Kings? no)

7 ♣

 

So worst possible hand for a 2/1 from partner is now something like xxx,xx,AQx,AQxxx...

How does it work that 2C is not G.F., but a simple raise can't be passed? On your auction, would opener be holding his breath and praying not to see a green card?

[ArtK78]

How does it work that 2C is not G.F., but a simple raise can't be passed? On your auction, would opener be holding his breath and praying not to see a green card?

If you play GF unless responder rebids his suit, a simple raise of responder's suit is game forcing. The only sequences that can result in playing 3 of responder's suit would be after opener rebids at the two level.

 

Roland may play it differently if responder could hold the hand he suggested. It appears that his responding hand intends to bid a nonforcing 2NT after opener's 2 level rebid. I would bid 1NT followed by 2NT on those cards.

[wyman]

How does it work that 2C is not G.F., but a simple raise can't be passed? On your auction, would opener be holding his breath and praying not to see a green card?

 

Even in Grandma Ethel standard (not 2/1 GF) a 2/1 promises a rebid. That GES has been bastardized amended by some to allow a pass after 1H-2C; 3C -- well, I don't have a lot to say about that.

 

(unless I'm waaaaaaay off, I guess, and learned standard bidding all wrong)

[mikeh]

N has a decision to make at the first round: he has a good opener, with 5 controls and an excellent suit. Responding 1N seems to me flawed primarily because absent good agreements he will have a horrible choice over the commonest rebids by partner.

 

Imagine opener rebidding 2♥...what now? Or 3♥? Yes, over 3♥ we will reach game but what chance do we have of slam, which may be cold opposite many 3♥ rebids?

 

So I opt for the slight overbid of 2♣ even tho it is gf in all my partnerships. Obviously 2♣ is clearly right if 2♣ doesn't create a gf.

 

Over 2♣, which may be a 4 card suit, responder has, nevertheless, an enormous hand, and I really hate any approach that delays providing that information to responder. When are we planning to catch up?

 

I'd bid 3♦, as a splinter, and be prepared to drive further if necessary, since I would splinter with far less in terms of hcp. Axx AKxxx x Kxxx is enough to splinter on.

 

Obviously, N's hand now grows up. Btw, this is why I hate efforts by S to 'delay' or 'wait' in this auction. When S makes a waiting call, N has only his borderline response and has no reason to get enthused. Even a 3♣ raise, which I agree ought to be forcing even if 2♣ didn't create a gf, is far too little precisely because it conveys little information.

 

When we show at least slight extras, a stiff diamond, and 4 trump, N has reason to become excited.

 

He has all kinds of options now. If 4♦ were keycard, then I'd avoid it if possible unless we had the agreement that the splinter always deliverd either 1st or 2nd round control of both side suits. It seems difficult to construct a splinter with no spade control, but there's no need to risk it.

 

4♣ is a move that denies a spade control or heart fit. Opener bids 4♥, and responder bids 4N, as forward-going (else he'd bid 5♣) and denies a spade control. Opener now bids 5♠, forcing to slam and thus suggesting willingness to cooperate in bidding grand, and N needs no more excuse: 7♣

 

 

So:

 

1♥ 2♣

3♦ 4♣

4♥ 4N

5♠ 7♣

 

While this may strike many as weird....how the heck did they bid a grand without ever asking for keycards?....it is actually simple if one sees bidding as dialogue, not monologue.

 

Note the use of 4N in a minor, slamming auction, to say: 'I have a good hand in context, and too much to sign off but not enough that I can force to slam....usually because I lack a control in the suit we haven't yet cue'd in'. I know that few people play this (I think Frances once said she uses it) but I strongly believe that it is far more valuable than using 4N here as keycard.

 

If a bid of 4♦over 3♦ were not keycard, then I'd use that call, and now it is opener who will end up driving to grand.

[PhilKing]

1♥ 2♣

3♣(15+ - direct spl weak) 3♦(relay)

3♠(strong ♦ splinter) 4♦(cue)

5♦(sand wedge RKCB) 6♣

7♣

[mikeh]

1♥ 2♣

3♣(15+ - direct spl weak) 3♦(relay)

3♠(strong ♦ splinter) 4♦(cue)

5♦(sand wedge RKCB) 6♣

7♣

How do you rebid as opener with 2=5=2=4, say 13 or 14 count?

 

You can't raise and you can't splinter, so do you have to conceal your support?

 

I'm not sure I like a method on which you must, presumably, rebid a 5 card suit, having shown 5 cards already, while not raising with 4 card support for partner: Ax Jxxxx Qx AKxx is a hastily concocted and perhaps unfair exemplar of a hand on which I'd hate to rebid 2♥, yet if I rebid 2N, we might never find our club fit.

 

I suspect you have a workable solution, and it's not as if raising to 3♣, as I would do, is a panacea.

[PhilKing]

How do you rebid as opener with 2=5=2=4, say 13 or 14 count?

 

You can't raise and you can't splinter, so do you have to conceal your support?

 

I'm not sure I like a method on which you must, presumably, rebid a 5 card suit, having shown 5 cards already, while not raising with 4 card support for partner: Ax Jxxxx Qx AKxx is a hastily concocted and perhaps unfair exemplar of a hand on which I'd hate to rebid 2♥, yet if I rebid 2N, we might never find our club fit.

 

I suspect you have a workable solution, and it's not as if raising to 3♣, as I would do, is a panacea.

 

1♥2♣2♦ is a catch-all with a minimum (possibly 3-card) balanced raise as one of the three main options. 1♥-2♣-2♥ shows six.

 

Partner now bids 2♥ on most non-shapely hands as a relay. Once we bid 3♣ pard can relay with 3♦ or do something else if he pleases.

[sfi]

1♥ - 3♣ (invitational, no heart fit) makes it trivial to reach the grand.

 

If playing a style where 2/1 is GF unless rebid, I would bid:

 

1♥ - 2♣

4♣ - 4♦

4NT ...

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqjhakq75d6ck863&n=st4h8dat53caqjt94&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p]266|200[/hv]

Playing 2/1, how would you bid these hands?

To see actual bidding and play click http://tinyurl.com/d5xuust

I like Mikeh's mini-splinter ( 3D-jump over Responder's 2C ) and I agree it is pretty tuff to bid the grand w/o some form of RKC:

South

1H - 2C

3D! - 4C ( since Responder doesn't have a Major suit cue, he is resigned to bid 4C )

?? ( now we can use Zelandakh's replies for minor suit, slammish hands )

.. 4D = 1st step = negative

.. the next 4 steps are RKC "showing" with a positive hand for slam

.. 4H = 0/3

.. 4S = 1/4

..4NT = 2 - ♣Q

.. 5C = 2 + ♣Q

After:

4H ( 0/3 )

..... - 4NT = K-ask ( specific replies )

5H ( ♥K )

At this point, Responder doesn't need a 2nd K-ask .

He can work out a 13 trick scenario in 7C with his strong, long ♣ suit:

1s, 2h, 1d, 3 ♦-ruffs, 6c = 13 ( without using the ♥Q )

[mikeh]

I like Mikeh's mini-splinter ( 3D-jump over Responder's 2C ) and I agree it is pretty tuff to bid the grand w/o some form of RKC:

South

1H - 2C

3D! - 4C ( since Responder doesn't have a Major suit cue, he is resigned to bid 4C )

?? ( now we can use Zelandakh's replies for minor suit, slammish hands )

 

 

(snipped)

At this point, Responder doesn't need a 2nd K-ask .

He can work out a 13 trick scenario in 7C with his strong, long ♣ suit:

1s, 2h, 1d, 3 ♦-ruffs, 6c = 13 ( without using the ♥Q )

He should never count 3 diamond ruffs, since the standard expert lead against a grand is a trump. This is usually on the basis that it pays to be passive and to strive to give nothing away, and usually opps who bid a suit grand have no hole in the trump suit (tho this wasn't the case in a spectacular hand from the 2010 WC). It becomes even more obvious to lead a trump on a splinter auction.

 

The other point on which I disagree is that you state that it is 'pretty tuff' to bid a grand without keycard. My view is that that is the case only for players who have learned to think that it is a crime to bid slams or grands without it. I gave an auction on which I think it is fairly easy to bid grand without keycard, and I don't just make those up for the forum. I don't keep track and I don't play much any more, but I'd venture that of all the grands I've bid in the last 5 years, we managed it without keycard at least 30% of the time. Keycard is a crutch. It is a very useful crutch and there are undoubtedly a lot of hands on which it is essential but this hand isn't one of them.

 

I mean, look at the S hand after a 2/1 2♣ response. Ask yourself this question: if as S I were allowed only one bid and that would end the auction, wouldn't we expect a panel to vote mainly for 6♣ but with grand as the second choice, ahead of any game contract?

 

And even without keycard we should be able to use the 4 levels of bidding between 2 and 6 in order to find out that responder likes his hand for slam purposes (which he surely does after a splinter).

 

Seriously, if anyone here thinks that this is a 'tough' grand to reach without keycard, they should probably arrange to play for a year without any ace asking mechanism, and will find that they will soon learn to bid this sort of hand very accurately despite the lack. Then, once able to use both keycard and natural bidding, they will find their slam bidding to be vastly improved.

[Codo]

How does it work that 2C is not G.F., but a simple raise can't be passed? On your auction, would opener be holding his breath and praying not to see a green card?

 

This is the french influence and I really like that:

1 ♥ 2 ♣ 2 ♥ shows the weak hand with or without fit. Partner will bid 2 NT f.e. and you can bid 3 ♣ nonforcing to show your hand. Too many upsides -Easy GF with a fit, 2 NT is much better defined, easier to find a spade or diamond fit for one downside: You do not know whether opener has 5 or 6 hearts.

 

But on reflection, I like Mikes 3 ♦ so much more then just 3 ♣. Over the splinter it is really plain sailing....

[gnasher]

I'm suprised at the number of people who want to treat the responding hand as invitational. To me, the aces, the good suit, and the useful spot cards in the side suits make it a clearcut game-force.

 

Without any special methods, I'd bid

1♥-2♣

3♦-4♦ (splinter / cue)

4NT-etc (Keycard)

 

I agree that on this deal it's easy to do without Keycard. In my auction above, with no Keycard, it might go:

1♥-2♣

3♦-4♦ (splinter / cue)

4♥-5♣ (cue / signoff)

5♥-7♣ (cue / signoff)

 

Often, though, you do need high-level Keycard after an exchange of cue-bids. Phil's sand-wedge idea seems a good one; otherwise I sometimes play 5NT as Keycard.

[rmnka447]

Auctions are based on 2/1 with responder's simple rebid of his suit as passable. Cue bidding style is "old fashioned" (i.e. 1st round controls bid first).

 

Longer form:

 

1 ♥ - 2 ♣

2 ♠ - 3 ♣

4 ♣ - 4 ♦

4 ♥ - 4 NT

5 ♦ - 5 ♥

5 NT - 7 ♣

 

Opener elects to reverse into a 3 card ♠ suit. Responder shows his 2/1 was based on ♣s. 4 ♣ by opener is a slam try showing ♦ shortness. Why not splinter? By agreement, showing shortness via a reverse auction implies a stronger hand (i.e. good honor texture in suits held) than a splinter. 4 NT is a waiting bid in the cue bidding sequence -- continued slam interest, but nothing more to show below the signoff point of 5 ♣. 5 ♦ shows a 2nd round control in ♦ and implies a ♠ control -- else opener would sign off in 5 ♣. 5 ♥ shows the ♥ singleton. At this point, opener can see that at worst the grand may depend on a ♠ finesse, and that responder will get pitches on opener's ♥ honors. 5 NT is GSF. Responder accepts and jumps to 7 ♣.

 

Short form:

 

1 ♥ - 2 ♣

2 ♠ - 3 ♣

4 ♣ - 4 ♦

5 ♥ - 7 ♣

 

Auction is the same through 4 ♦ -- opener shows big hand with ♦ shortness and responder starts cues with 4 ♦ (1st in ♦). Opener makes a sweep cue bid of 5 ♥ which shows in order -- a 1st round control in ♥, a 1st round control in ♠, a high ♣ honor, a 2nd round control in ♦, a 2nd round control in ♥, and denies a 2nd round control in ♠. Repsonder knows enough to bid 7 ♣ directly.

[mike777]

so every one gets to 7c ....not sure what the problem is.......

 

 

dont be over worried about xx in side suit?

dont worry about supporting pard with 4 card support?

dont worry if that responder hand is worth 2/1 gf or just a strong inv?

 

as some once said DONT Worry

[mikeh]

so every one gets to 7c ....not sure what the problem is.......

 

 

dont be over worried about xx in side suit?

dont worry about supporting pard with 4 card support?

dont worry if that responder hand is worth 2/1 gf or just a strong inv?

 

as some once said DONT Worry

Do you actually understand the posts? While some posters do exhibit one or more of your concerns, others have posted entirely logical auctions that do not.

[mike777]

Do you actually understand the posts? While some posters do exhibit one or more of your concerns, others have posted entirely logical auctions that do not.

 

 

I only object to the word.......entirely

 

see your posts which are more expert judgment

 

in any case we agreed concerns

 

You make an excellent post about non rkc auctions.....I dont agree( too much judgment) but you made your case.

[han]

I agree with gnasher who wrote that treating responder's hand as invitational seems dubious.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqjhakq75d6ck863&n=st4h8dat53caqjt94&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p]266|200[/hv]

Playing 2/1, how would you bid these hands?

To see actual bidding and play click http://tinyurl.com/d5xuust

OK... I'll try one w/o RKC :

 

South

1♥ - 2♣ ( 4+, GF )

3♦ ( splinter, 4+ )

.... - 4♦ ( must be the Ace, denies ♠ Ctrl )

5NT ( GSF asking for 2 of top 3 ♣ honors )

.... - 7C