Splinter or autosplinter?

[jahol]

Tonight, local MP tournament. Playing with advanced partner, having some agreements like 2/1 general framework, Bergen raises, cue bids, Jacoby, etc. etc. Our hands

 

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

Bidding: opponents quiet

 

Partner-----Me

1H............1S

2H............4C

4H............4S

pass.....

 

2H bid should guarantee 6+ H, 12-15PC according to our agreements. I started cue-bidding in the second round of auction and decided to continue even after negative response 4H from my partner. First, my partner understood the 4C bid correctly (cue for H game or slam), but after 4S bid, he reevaluated the meaning finishing with explanation that 4C was autosplinter for spade game or slam.

 

Any comments to this disaster?

[jahol]

Sorry, the name of the contribution is confusing. It should have been "Cuebid or autosplinter?"

[HeartA]

To avoid this kind of confusion, I would suggest to bid (Jacoby) 2NT at the first round, or to begin with 2D (and bid S later if necessary). For the given auction, I don't have a clear (simple "yes" or "no") answer to the question. But most likely it shows ♥ fit and slam interest. If responder wanted to play his(her) own spades, he should bid 3C (new minor forcing) and then 4S.

[hrothgar]

Tonight, local MP tournament. Playing with advanced partner, having some agreements like 2/1 general framework, Bergen raises, cue bids, Jacoby, etc. etc. Our hands

 

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

Bidding: opponents quiet

 

Partner-----Me

1H............1S

2H............4C

4H............4S

pass.....

 

2H bid should guarantee 6+ H, 12-15PC according to our agreements. I started cue-bidding in the second round of auction and decided to continue even after negative response 4H from my partner. First, my partner understood the 4C bid correctly (cue for H game or slam), but after 4S bid, he reevaluated the meaning finishing with explanation that 4C was autosplinter for spade game or slam.

 

Any comments to this disaster?

First comment: Jacoby 2NT specifially promites 4+ card trump support. There may be hands wheter J2NT is the best bid with 3 pieces, but this sure ain't one of them.

 

1♥ - 1♠ seems clear.

 

After partner's 2♥ rebid, 4♣ isn't necessary as an autosplinter setting Spades as trump. There are plenty of other ways to show Spades at a low level.

[mike777]

Looked up phrase "autosplinter" in Bridge Encyclopedia 6th edition.

Not there.

 

Is this now a standard bid in a pick up game with little discussion?

 

I would always bid 1s with this hand then 4clubs, oh well. 4s seems ok but in pick up game who knows, if not 4s then what 5h asking for second round D control, or is that meaning open to debate in a pick up game too?

[Flame]

4 clubs is splinter with heart support.

I'll try to explain, first jumps which arent natural are usually used for splinter not cue bids (i think in the past ppl used other ways like asking bids)

So after we know its a short suit, there is the question of wather its with heart support or with a long spade suit meaning autosplinter, the answer is very simple, 95% of the time a splinter is with support to partner and not a seft splinter, the 5% looks might diffeent then this sequence,something like

1H -2H

4C

or

maybe

2c-2d

2h-2nt

4c

anyway if your not sure , its not a autosplinter.

[keylime]

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

Jacoby 2NT is already by itself a totally pooped filled ancient treatment. And, for this example you don't need it.

 

1H - 1S (preparing to jump into hearts at next turn, 2D isn't quite good enough)

2H - 3D (forcing)

3NT - 4C

4H - ?

<decision time, try for slam?>

 

Now pard has a good picture of your hand. 4 diamonds, 4 spades, honor-doub or tripleton heart support, and a small weakness in clubs (a-x isn't much of a weakness, but work with me). Also, they know that by failing to bid 2D followed by 4H, that your hand wasn't right for a pudding raise (i.e. a delayed raise showing concentrated values in both suits). Pard gets the message of scattered values everywhere that is probing for slam.

[sceptic]

why did you bid 1 spade over the heart suit you have support for, if you r playing 2/1 surly a 2/1 bid would be enough

 

1H - p - 2D - p - 2H - p - 3H - p - 4C(no spade control) - p - 4D - p - 4H now you can make good decision 4nt??

 

 

I dont think you should play jacoby 2nt with 3 card support especially when you play 4 card bergen raises,and I dont think you should bid a 4 card major when you have a fit for a 5 card major

 

p.s. I belong in the beginners intermediates lounge, just had to get my two pence worth in as I thought it was interesting how you got there.

 

does not adress autosplinter but I dont think anyone has a genuine splinter bid (I may get lambasted for this)

[paulg]

why did you bid 1 spade over the heart suit you have support for, if you r playing 2/1 surly a 2/1 bid would be enough

The reason to bid a good 4-card spade suit is that a 4-4 spade fit may be worth a trick more than a 5-3 heart fit. It also gives partner a better idea of where your values lie when it comes to evaluating slam potential.

 

p

[paulg]

Tonight, local MP tournament. Playing with advanced partner, having some agreements like 2/1 general framework, Bergen raises, cue bids, Jacoby, etc. etc. Our hands

 

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

Bidding: opponents quiet

 

Partner-----Me

1H............1S

2H............4C

4H............4S

pass.....

 

2H bid should guarantee 6+ H, 12-15PC according to our agreements. I started cue-bidding in the second round of auction and decided to continue even after negative response 4H from my partner. First, my partner understood the 4C bid correctly (cue for H game or slam), but after 4S bid, he reevaluated the meaning finishing with explanation that 4C was autosplinter for spade game or slam.

 

Any comments to this disaster?

On the autosplinter question, you have to establish the trump suit to make such a bid. In this case it is clear that 4♣ agrees hearts, as with a strong spade suit partner would have either responded 2♠ initially (if this is strong) or bid 3♠ forcing on the second round.

 

I suggest that the following could be an autosplinter for spades ...

 

1♥-2♠-2NT-4♣

 

p

[paulg]

1H  - p  -  2D  - p  -  2H - p - 3H  - p - 4C(no spade control) - p - 4D  - p -  4H now you can make good decision 4nt??

This is a good sequence when you have poor spades, but would completely lose a 4-4 fit that may be playable in this case.

[Free]

1♠ is absolutely clear! As cardsharp said: 4-4 might play better than a 5-3 (even better than 5-4 sometimes - I had such one a few weeks ago). J2NT is awful on this hand, even if you'd have a full 4-card support.

 

I would interprete 4♣ as splinter with ♥ support. I don't know where your partner gets it to think this is setting ♠ :rolleyes: The biggest chance to a fit is clearly ♥, so why play methods which don't come up often enough to be useful? To set ♠ as trump you need to be able to play in ♠ when partner doesn't have any, and you won't have support in his 6-card suit! :blink:

 

I also wonder what info you're trying to get continuing the cuebidding. Say partner bids 5♣, now what? 5♦-5♥? And what's next?

 

My bidding:

1♥ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♦

3NT - 4♣

4♥ - pass

 

It depends on the ♦s if this is slam or not. If partner only has 2, then it's laydown, if he has 3 small ones you're down. Does anybody have a tool in this stage to find that out?

[bearmum]

Tonight, local MP tournament. Playing with advanced partner, having some agreements like 2/1 general framework, Bergen raises, cue bids, Jacoby, etc. etc. Our hands

 

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

Bidding: opponents quiet

 

Partner-----Me

1H............1S

2H............4C

4H............4S

pass.....

 

2H bid should guarantee 6+ H, 12-15PC according to our agreements. I started cue-bidding in the second round of auction and decided to continue even after negative response 4H from my partner. First, my partner understood the 4C bid correctly (cue for H game or slam), but after 4S bid, he reevaluated the meaning finishing with explanation that 4C was autosplinter for spade game or slam.

 

Any comments to this disaster?

Guess your partner didn't follow your SPECIFIC agreements ( 2♥ in the bidding shows 6+♥ AND (MY emphasis) 12-15 )

 

SO allowing his opening bid MAYBE should have been 2♥ --- he then correctly picked your 4♣ bid agreeing hearts he should NOT pass your 4♠ (IMHO)--- he should bid 5♣ then u can sign off in 5♠ ???

[MarceldB]

I also wonder what info you're trying to get continuing the cuebidding.  Say partner bids 5♣, now what?  5♦-5♥?  And what's next?

 

My bidding:

1♥ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♦

3NT - 4♣

4♥ - pass

 

It depends on the ♦s if this is slam or not.  If partner only has 2, then it's laydown, if he has 3 small ones you're down.  Does anybody have a tool in this stage to find that out?

The big problem is that with 'lowering the limits' regarding the pointrange by opening 1♥ you need very good tools and a more than normal scheme to be able to handle such hands.

 

With Qx, AKT9xx,xxx, Kx

you will bid 4♥ too after the 4♣ bid

that's what I mean. Same as with your remark regarding the doubleton ♦

 

WOS with build-in "lowering the limits" will solve those problems.

Specially if your descriptions of those limited openings are very well designed.

 

f.e.

 

2♣= 8-12 ♥ 5332 with 2/3 toph. OR 6322 toph.= unknown

-----2♦= relay

 

2NT= 6322 8-10p. 2toph.

-----3♣= distri relay (not with the purpose to investigate slem on forehand but to investigate -----if 3NT or 4♥ will be better + at the same time if hearing 2-6-2-3 you will proceed

 

3♥= 2-6-3-2

-----3NT

 

Pass

 

Even with AKxxxx♥ only (is an 8-12 pointer too normally in Polish WOS) you will reach the fine 3NT contract

[ArcLight]

Jacoby 2NT

 

 

>Jacoby 2NT is already by itself a totally pooped filled ancient treatment. And, for this example you don't need it.

 

Keylime, whats wrong with Jacoby 2NT? I dont mean for this hand (only 3 trumps), I mean in general, is J2NT not a good convention? What would you recommend instead?

[Fluffy]

Jacoby 2NT means you are supposed to have enough trumps so making partner to ruff 3 tiems with its singleton won't hurt, you ask about singletons because you will look for losers thinking about a dummy reversal directly, so 4-7 trumps are needed.

 

4♣ is splinter with ♥ as fit, wich means you should have 5+♠, (with 3 suiter you splinter directly).

 

Starting with 2♦ directly is not good because you have no chance to recover a ♠ fit unless you wanna risk hearing some ♦ raise (althou you can switch back to ♥), also 2♦ consumes a lot more space, all in all actually is not a very bad idea.

[bearmum]

Tonight, local MP tournament. Playing with advanced partner, having some agreements like 2/1 general framework, Bergen raises, cue bids, Jacoby, etc. etc. Our hands

 

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

Bidding: opponents quiet

 

Partner-----Me

1H............1S

2H............4C

4H............4S

pass.....

 

2H bid should guarantee 6+ H, 12-15PC according to our agreements. I started cue-bidding in the second round of auction and decided to continue even after negative response 4H from my partner. First, my partner understood the 4C bid correctly (cue for H game or slam), but after 4S bid, he reevaluated the meaning finishing with explanation that 4C was autosplinter for spade game or slam.

 

Any comments to this disaster?

Guess your partner didn't follow your SPECIFIC agreements ( 2♥ in the bidding shows 6+♥ AND (MY emphasis) 12-15 )

 

SO allowing his opening bid MAYBE should have been 2♥ --- he then correctly picked your 4♣ bid agreeing hearts he should NOT pass your 4♠ (IMHO)--- he should bid 5♣ then u can sign off in 5♠ ???

what I REALLY meant was you could sign off in five :blink: ♥

[inquiry]

First comment: Jacoby 2NT specifially promites 4+ card trump support. There may be hands wheter J2NT is the best bid with 3 pieces, but this sure ain't one of them.

I am curious, if there are hands where jacoby 2NT is ok on a three card suit, what kind of hand is it. I mean this one is 18 hcp, 7 controls, ruffing values, two honors in support of partners suit. What more or what less do you think you need for jacoby 2NT with three card support. It is simply the four card spade suit (Iif spades and clubs were reversed would that be ok for jacoby 2NT? IF the majors were reversed and partner opened 1S, would that do?

 

Ben

[the hog]

Quote Sceptic

 

"why did you bid 1 spade over the heart suit you have support for, if you r playing 2/1 surly a 2/1 bid would be enough

 

1H - p - 2D - p - 2H - p - 3H - p - 4C(no spade control) - p - 4D - p - 4H now you can make good decision 4nt??"

 

In a 2/1 system, bidding 2D followed by support is very poor technique. You are stressing the D suit as a source of tricks in a possible H slam, which it certainly is not. For example partner would not look too favourably at a D singleton if you bid this way. This situation has been discussed a number of times before and thus I am surprised it appears to have resurfaced.

 

Secondly re Jacoby 2NT. Though I don't like Jacoby on this hand, it is a possible response if you have reasonable continuations allowing you show ranges, second suits, shortages etc. However be aware that you are probably burying a 4-4 S fit forever, and for this reason I agree with Richard's and Free's comments. Jacoby will nearly always lose for you a 4-4 fit in another suit apart from the agreed suit. On this hand with its 6-3 fit, a slam in S or D might be a superior contract to a H slam, but will be difficult to explore after Jacoby unless you have very sophisticated methods. My preferrred J2NT methods are that the bid always shows 4 card support, and certainly denies a good 5 card suit outside.

 

The best treatment imo is to have this sequence available as GF -

1H 1S

2H 2N

 

Now you can gently explore the correct strain and level.

 

I realise that many do not yet play that treatment. In its absence I would suggest either J2NT or preferably 1S followed by 3d over the 2H rebid. This 4C bid in the given auction is not an autosplinter, but rather agrees opener's suit and shows a singleton C. As Richard points out there are other ways to set one's own suit without resorting to obfuscation.

[HeartA]

First comment:  Jacoby 2NT specifially promites 4+ card trump support.  There may be hands wheter J2NT is the best bid with 3 pieces, but this sure ain't one of them.

I am curious, if there are hands where jacoby 2NT is ok on a three card suit, what kind of hand is it. I mean this one is 18 hcp, 7 controls, ruffing values, two honors in support of partners suit. What more or what less do you think you need for jacoby 2NT with three card support. It is simply the four card spade suit (Iif spades and clubs were reversed would that be ok for jacoby 2NT? IF the majors were reversed and partner opened 1S, would that do?

 

Ben

Ben,

You said all for me.

[keylime]

Partner: xx--AK109xx--xxx--Kx

Me:.......AKxx--QJx--A10xx--Ax

 

J2NT is a horrible choice of bid here because of the fact that you are flat, it's not your best bid, missing a fourth trump, AND....do you REALLY have mild slam intent?

 

Bid one spade, and just force partner along. No need to take tons of space to rush partner along to have them give you a response you don't want to hear. After you hear 2H from partner, now your hand takes on an interesting light. We know that pard doesn't have four spades, has six hearts, doesn't have a four card suit to offer, and it minimum. Talk about no stress!

 

I personally would, if partner was aware, use 2NT as a GF relay, to ask pard to identify certain elements of their hand. 2NT also infers I have heart support. Pard now is going to bid whatever system of responses you agree with (I personally would bid 3C to show an absolute minimum, with 3D asking about controls, with 3H showing 3-4 controls, and after another ask locating three diamonds - now you know slam is looking not that great opposite a flat hand that has a big hole in clubs/diamonds potentially).

 

Going along in this manner, in whatever form thereof, saves the embarrassment.

[pclayton]

1♠ is pretty clear. If the hand didn't have 4♠, I might trot 2N to simplify the auction.

 

A natural 2N call here could work. I had a thread on here about a response structure my pard and I worked up. Basically the auction would start: 1♥ - 2N; 3♣ (minimum) - 3♥; 4♣ - 4♦; 4♥. From here its hard to say if responder makes a move. Since Serious 3N was bypassed, 4♣ shows a real mutt.

 

Continuing a thread we had a few weeks ago, wouldn't it be nice if 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♥ was forcing?

[jahol]

First, thank you for nice discussion.

 

My feelings:

1) I would always prefer 1S bid in the first round of the auction. I think, the difference between 4-4 and 5-4 fit is just one trick quite often, however, this is a kind of VERY big difference when making game or even slam just! Regarding Jacoby 2NT, I think that is should be definitely bid with FOUR cards support. The difference between three and four cards support seems to me crucial, particularly in slam attempts (and that is what Jacoby is used for, or not?).

2) The potencial 3D bid in the second round of auction (instead of four clubs) is more complicated issue. This bid looks fine, but it seems to me that it can cause problems to my partner (what one should try to avoid all the time). What should partner bid without club stopper? Should it be 3 spades with three cards in spades? And then, is 4C cue-bid for spade slam?? After 3S bid, how can I show to my partner heart support AND a very nice hand? Is 4C REALLY club cue for heart slam after 1H-1S-2H-3D-3NT?? Seems to me, the case is not that easy.

3) With club splinter, I would have bid 4C IMMEDIATELY after 1H call. May I have splinter hand after 1H-1S-2H, if I did not have splinter hand after 1H? I think that an important feature of splinter is enough trumphs in hand for ruffing, i.e. at least four of them. Are three trumphs enough for splinter as soon as partner has shown at least six in his hand? Isn't it better to reserve 4C call for "natural" cue-bid in this sequence?

4) I really think that the hand is definitely worth of slam try. With partner's

Qx--AKxxxx--xx--Kxx

GRAND slam is almost cold and even with 10 points hand very similar to the real one, my partner held

xx--AKxxxx--xx--Kxx

small slam is almost cold.

The question is who should ask about aces. The response should be - the one who can better decide about the final contract. I think that the solution of this question is very difficult for this board.

[pclayton]

Don't agree that 4♣ over 2♥ rebid can't be a splinter. Wouldn't you bid it with: AQxxx, AJx, Qxxx, x?

 

3♦ over 2♥ is possible, but it leads to confusion later. And I HATE the suggestions about:

 

1♥ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♦

3N - 4♣

 

as being the way to bid this hand. Temporize TWICE and never support pard? Its laughable if it wasn't the 'proper' way to bid the hand.

 

How about this:

 

1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥:

 

2♠ - Non-forcing; 5 to a bad 10.

2N - Puppet to 3♣; but opener needs club tolerance (see below)

3♣ / 3♦ / 3♥ / 3♠ - Natural and game forcing

 

 

After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2N - 3♣:

 

Pass - weak with long clubs.

3♦; either weak or invitational with ♦/♠

3♥ / 3♠; invitational

 

Is this so tough?

[the hog]

Sorry Jahol, but 4C over a 2H rebid is clearly a splinter whether you like it or not. Look at Phil's example hand in the above post.

 

This hand shows the value of my earlier suggestion that 2N should be forcing once opener has bid and rebid a suit.