Is there a logical alternative to 2[Sp]

[mycroft]

I'm in blackshoe's camp (which probably is strongly related to our shared regulatory scheme). When they ask about 2♥ and pass, they have values but no bid. They explicitly do *not* have hearts but no penalty double; they've learned that you have to pass that hand (usually after taking the full 10 seconds, you know they way they never do any other time).

 

When they ask about *1*♥, the answer is "fewer than you have, obviously". But not 2.

 

Oh, when they ask about 2♦, they play, and often forget to Alert, Flannery. Or they're making a "partner, please balance" call. Or they've just met too many people who don't Alert whatever 2♦ gadget they do play. Which, unfortunately, makes 2♦ a less effective preempt than it otherwise would be.

 

But again, around here, not 2♥ (mostly due to GCC restrictions).

[bluejak]

What action do you take?

2♠.

 

What other actions do you consider?

Pass.

 

If partner, breaks tempo, asks about the the unalerted 2♥ and passes do you feel constrained here.

Yes.

 

Quick answers will be good as the lesson starts in about two hours.

Sorry, I am reading this about three weeks later!

 

At the club I went to tonight for a lesson. I put this hand up as a bidding problem at the beginning just to do a poll. Later in the lesson I talked about the main issue which was the inane questions from partner who had an auto pass but with 13 hcp. In the poll 3/20 passed, 1/20 doubled and 16/20 bid 2♠.

 

I think this makes it pretty close to the threshold for pass being or not being a logical alternative for that group of players.

I don't agree, and am surprised others agree.

 

Let's extrapolate from your figures. Let's guesstimate what actions people consider.

 

If 3/20 pass then I think we can safely say that at least three more will consider pass.

 

So 30% consider pass, of whom some [15%] actually choose pass.

 

Those figures are well over the numbers required for an LA, which are roughly 20% and 5%.

 

So pass is an LA, not even close.

 

Double? If one chose it, maybe one more considered it. So 10% and 5%: that's not an LA.

 

Yes, your poll suggests that pass or double are probably not logical alternatives ---and further suggests that if we did pass or double it would border on flagrant use of the UI warranting an adjustment and a PP.

First, the poll clearly does suggest that pass is an LA.

 

Second, even if it doesn't, the fact that partner has shown values suggests 2♠ over pass, not the reverse. So to give a PP for choosing pass would be wildly inappropriate.

 

The only time a PP is appropriate is when

• there is no question that partner made UI available, and
  
• the player is experienced enough and advanced enough to have some idea of UI rules, and
  
• the action chosen is one that is not just illegal but everyone who understood UI rules would realise was illegal