What is this?

[ArtK78]

In answer to the original question, agua is 100% correct - the 2NT rebid shows a balanced invite to a NT game.

 

However, there has been additional information between the initial 1NT bid and the rebid, in that opener has promised 6 hearts (I would not bid 2♥ with 5 very good hearts in a 4522 hand - I would bid 2♣). So, the 2NT bid should deny as many as 2 hearts. With the hand presented in post #4, I would bid 3♥ - invitational to game in hearts. 3♥ might still be a limit raise to game with 3 hearts, but it doesn't promise 3 hearts.

 

2♠ is an interesting idea. Perhaps 2♠ should show a 3 card limit raise in hearts while 3♥ shows a 2 card invitation. Or, more likely, the reverse, so that 2NT becomes a possible contract.

[wyman]

It sounds like you are saying that all deals with ~22+ points and nine trumps should bid game. That might be a tenable position; is that actually what you mean?

 

No, I said that all hands with a 3-card limit raise should bid game when they find out that opener has 6 trumps. There's a difference.

 

edit: differences, to be clear, include

* 6-3 fit, which may provide more tricks than a 5-4

* 11 v 11 plays better than 17 v 5

[mike777]

prefer to use 2s here for minor suited hands by responder, I dont have any other way to show them.

 

again with most hands that would be a 3 card invite I would just bid game at imps, but my 3 card invite hands are are not junky 10-11. that range would be a direct 2h raise for me over 1h.

[wyman]

prefer to use 2s here for minor suited hands by responder, I dont have any other way to show them.

 

again with most hands that would be a 3 card invite I would just bid game at imps, but my 3 card invite hands are are not junky 10-11. that range would be a direct 2h raise for me over 1h.

 

right we have different opening styles so evaluate invites differently, but the point is that hands with JB's shape are bidding 2NT if they are invitational, and hands that you initially called an invitational 3 card raise will now just bid game.

 

Whether our invites are 9-11, 10-11, 10-12, 11-12, more, whatever, that's a question of style

[aguahombre]

This is the problem, I dont have a 3 card limit raise.

Or a two-card limit raise, either; you have a pass. The ten-count is for hands with 3+support but not completely flat. Here, you have an 8-card fit, but the partnership assets total 21-24 and you will be in game with all 23's if you invite.

 

11-12 is a better invite range for notrump.

 

BTW: After 1H-1N!-2H you have two bids at your disposal if you want them with heart support--2S (impossible as a natural call) and 3H. One or the other can be the real 3-card limit raise...We choose 3H with 3 hearts. Some don't have the two options and use the impossible 2S to show a 5-5 ish minor 2-suiter.

 

I see an overlap from Mike and Wyman due to slow typing, but a bit different on choices.

[billw55]

No, I said that all hands with a 3-card limit raise should bid game when they find out that opener has 6 trumps. There's a difference.

 

edit: differences, to be clear, include

* 6-3 fit, which may provide more tricks than a 5-4

* 11 v 11 plays better than 17 v 5

OK now I understand :)

 

Certainly agree that 11/11 plays better than 17/5. Not as sure about 6-3 versus 5-4 fits, for example 5-4 may be more durable against 3-1 breaks because a trump remains in dummy. Against that, the 6 bagger is more resistant to forcing so .. not sure the net effect.

[cherdano]

3H shows an invite with a fit. Could be 2-cards, could be 3-cards. But may hands that started as a 3-card limit raise will become a game force once we know that partner has 6 hearts. As opener, you should assume 2-card support, as that is more frequent than 3-card support not worth an upgrade.

[billw55]

3H shows an invite with a fit. Could be 2-cards, could be 3-cards. But may hands that started as a 3-card limit raise will become a game force once we know that partner has 6 hearts.

I am interested in some example hands you would put in this category. Not arguing, just interested.

[Zelandakh]

2♣; it's clearly imperfect, but it's what we've got.

Imperfect is one word for it, I can think of a few others. Am I alone in thinking that this is one of the worst popular bidding ideas around today? I do not really understand why good players use 1NT like this over a 1♥ opening, when there is a perfectly good alternative available in 1♠ that would allow pairs to play exactly the same structure as they do over a 1♠ opening. And there are other options too. Nearly every option would be simpler for normal club players to handle than the 2/1 that everyone seems to learn unquestioningly.

[wyman]

OK now I understand :)

 

Certainly agree that 11/11 plays better than 17/5. Not as sure about 6-3 versus 5-4 fits, for example 5-4 may be more durable against 3-1 breaks because a trump remains in dummy. Against that, the 6 bagger is more resistant to forcing so .. not sure the net effect.

 

You often can get away with ruffing in the short hand before drawing anyway, so I don't see why the 'leftover' trump is a huge factor, except maybe that it's nice as an entry in some squeeze situations and allows for some more strip-and-endplay possibilities I guess.

 

But yeah, my point was basically that I'm not saying "22 pts + 9 trumps = game" -- I'm saying something about this specific auction and hand type.

[fromageGB]

I hope I never have the misfortune to pick up partners who rebid 3♥ on this hand. It seems a clear pass.

 

As to other points raised, with a partner not playing Flannery that does not like Kaplan Inversion, with a 4522 hand after 1♥ 1NT, I rebid 2♦, as 2♣ is artificial 15+. Partner will not pass with fewer than 5 diamonds, and even then only with a heart shortage. I am happy-ish with this.*

 

With a partner playing Kaplan Inversion, also not playing Flannery, when it starts 1♥ 1♠ (may have 4 spades) 2♦ shows 4 spades, and 1NT denies. I am much happier with this.*

 

As to the "impossible 2♠", it is not impossible if you play KI as I do. 1♥ 1NT(5+ spades) 2♦ 2♠ is 6 card 11+, while 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♠ is 6 card up to 10 hcp. (You could reverse these.) (For us an immediate 1♥ 2♠ is not wjs, but 4 card support 13+.)

 

With the non-KI partner, 2♠ really is impossible, and will never be bid. If you can't remember KI you would never remember what it might mean !

 

* The astute will note that these methods do not let opener rebid a natural 2♦. But as we can't bid a natural 2♣ either it seems reasonable to use it these ways when limited to a 14 max.

[Trinidad]

As to other points raised, with a partner not playing Flannery that does not like Kaplan Inversion, with a 4522 hand after 1♥ 1NT, I rebid 2♦, as 2♣ is artificial 15+.

 

Just curious. What do you rebid with a 13 point 4513? or a 4504? or a 3514? or a 3505? Are these all 2♦ rebids?

 

Rik

[aguahombre]

Just curious. What do you rebid with a 13 point 4513? or a 4504? or a 3514? or a 3505? Are these all 2♦ rebids?

 

Rik

I think he was saying he plays that gadzucks convention.

[rmnka447]

I'm another passer over 2 ♥ with this hand.

 

You may see a 10 point hand, but I see a 9 loser hand with lots of quacks.

 

If the hand were, say, ♠ xxx ♥ J10 ♦ Kxx ♣ AQxxx, I'd have no trouble inviting game.

[gwnn]

I think he was saying he plays that gadzucks convention.

Nope. He was saying 2C is 15+ artificial. Gazzilli has 2C as 11-14 with clubs or 15+ any/almost any.

[Codo]

I'm another passer over 2 ♥ with this hand.

 

You may see a 10 point hand, but I see a 9 loser hand with lots of quacks.

 

If the hand were, say, ♠ xxx ♥ J10 ♦ Kxx ♣ AQxxx, I'd have no trouble inviting game.

 

I see too many chances for 4 ♥ to pass.

[fromageGB]

Just curious. What do you rebid with a 13 point 4513? or a 4504? or a 3514? or a 3505? Are these all 2♦ rebids?

 

Nope. He was saying 2C is 15+ artificial. Gazzilli has 2C as 11-14 with clubs or 15+ any/almost any.

This is the way most people play it, some say 15 is enough, some need 17. I like 15, as it copes well enough. But with a 5 card minor such as the 3505 15/16 count I prefer to rebid jump 3♣, and with 17+ go through Gazzilli. The other exceptions I use are an immediate 2NT is 20+ unbalanced, and 3♥(same major) is suit-setting game force.

 

An advantage of playing 15+ is that the 2♦ is limited to 14, which makes it easy for partner to sign off.

[gwnn]

This is the way most people play it, some say 15 is enough, some need 17. I like 15, as it copes well enough. But with a 5 card minor such as the 3505 15/16 count I prefer to rebid jump 3♣, and with 17+ go through Gazzilli. The other exceptions I use are an immediate 2NT is 20+ unbalanced, and 3♥(same major) is suit-setting game force.

 

An advantage of playing 15+ is that the 2♦ is limited to 14, which makes it easy for partner to sign off.

But what does 2♦ promise if 2♣ is 15+ artificial?

Or do you mean that you play

 

2♣=(3)4+ clubs 11-14 OR 15+ art (many but not all strong hands)

2♦=(1)2+ diamonds, 11-14?

 

The brackets indicating that I (and Trinidad) still don't know what you do with 4513.

[broze]

Imperfect is one word for it, I can think of a few others. Am I alone in thinking that this is one of the worst popular bidding ideas around today? I do not really understand why good players use 1NT like this over a 1♥ opening, when there is a perfectly good alternative available in 1♠ that would allow pairs to play exactly the same structure as they do over a 1♠ opening. And there are other options too. Nearly every option would be simpler for normal club players to handle than the 2/1 that everyone seems to learn unquestioningly.

 

Better, sure. But simpler? And is systematically rebidding 2♣ with 4522 so much worse than rebidding 2♣ with 3523? I can certainly see why people don't add system here to address this pretty infrequent problem.

[Zelandakh]

Better, sure. But simpler? And is systematically rebidding 2♣ with 4522 so much worse than rebidding 2♣ with 3523? I can certainly see why people don't add system here to address this pretty infrequent problem.

There are many possibilities. KI is one that has already been mentioned. A simpler one is to play 1♠ as a F1NT response and a 1NT response to be GF with spades. That gives an identical structure to the 1♠ opening - you just have to remember that NT and spades are inverted. For me, this is simpler than having 2 different structures, even if the structures are considered more natural.

 

You can also play this in combination with Gazilli, so that 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT = diamonds or strong and 1♥ - 1♠; 2♦ = spades. That is obviously not simpler but if you are playing Gaz then simple is probably not top of the priority list. You can also do quite a lot with transfers after a 1♥ auction. That may or may not be seen as simple depending on how complicated you think they are. Rememeber though, the only reason that most of these methods are seen as more compicated is because we all learn a certain way of playing at the beginning. If everyone was taught symmetric relay as a beginner, then 2/1 would suddenly look complicated. There is nothing intrinsically more complicated about the NT-spade inversion and it is more consistent with the 1♠ opening. This would (imo) certainly be the simplest F1NT method possible if it were taught as standard. And I suspect that it would (slightly) improve the results of most I/A pairs too.

[fromageGB]

But what does 2♦ promise if 2♣ is 15+ artificial?

Or do you mean that you play

 

2♣=(3)4+ clubs 11-14 OR 15+ art (many but not all strong hands)

2♦=(1)2+ diamonds, 11-14?

 

The brackets indicating that I (and Trinidad) still don't know what you do with 4513.

For a start, let me say my preferred treatment is KI, so this particular 4513 hand goes 1♥ 1♠ 2♦, and this 2♦ says nothing about the minors, but shows a 12-14 with 4 spades.

 

However, the answer I gave was a general one. If you are playing Gazzilli with a 17+ as most do, then the way to handle it would be to say 2♦ is 12-16 and guarantees a doubleton, to help the pass option, and 2♣ is most 17 counts, or 12-16 with at least 3 clubs. Over the 8+ 2♦ relay, the 12-16 option rebids 2♥, which can be passed, or perhaps converted to clubs etc.

 

I don't like this, personally, as I don't think knowledge of 3 clubs or 2 diamonds is much of a help in determining the contract. So what I do (and I am not recommending this, it's just my preference) is not bother with the minors at all. 2♦ is purely and simply a denial of 15hcp. Partner can pass with 5+ diamonds, and opener would normally have some diamonds, but the contract is more usually 2♥. Not ideal, but I like the ability given by gazzilli for opener to define strength, and treat this as more important. A non-forcing NT would avoid this, but again I like the advantages given by a forcing NT, and choose to suffer this. It is rarely a problem.

 

This is I think only marginally worse than the standard Gazzilli in finding a minor fit (where 2♦ could be a doubleton and 2♣ only 3) but I like the trade off it gives that 2♦ shows 14 max. 12-16 is too wide for responder to make a sensible bid, but 12-14 is manageable with simple game inquiries (eg 2NT, and 3♥ if not including this in your 2♣ response), or sign off in any suit. When there is a 2♣ 2♦ sequence, opener rebids naturally at the 2 level with 15/16 and bids at the 3 level with 17. So 2♥ is 6, 2♠ is 4, 2NT = neither. (1♠ 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ is 4 card 15/16). There are significant advantages in showing a 6 card heart suit with 2♥ as either 12-14, or 15/16.

 

You can probably do better with more artificial sequences, as Zelandakh points out.

 

Edit - I say 12-14, 12-16 etc because I will only open with 11 if a 6 card suit, and that rebids 2♥. I have weak 2s that manage the 5 card 11 count. (And other edits)

Edited March 14, 2013 by fromageGB

[SteveMoe]

Depending on your opening style, 2N should show 9-11 and an inability to raise ♥. Since opener showed 6, that should limit responder to 0-1♥ cards. It should also suggest a ♠ stopper. With no ability to raise a 6-card suit and no ♠ stop, 2♠ not 2N can be a useful rebid after the 1NT force (some might prefer to assign this a 54+ minors hand with top values).

With 2-card ♥ support raise opener to 3.

With 3-card ♥ support raise partner to 4, especially if you have some distribution. As others note, raising to 4 is probably better if you expect Rule of 22 opening bids.

[aguahombre]

Unless opener's simple rebid showing a minimum 1-bid to start with has a top count of 16, which very few systems have ---then misfitting responders should forget 9-counts as part of their invite range.

 

With most opening bid styles, 10 is not enough to invite game without a fit. We believe 1H-1N-2H, when we hold 0-1 heart is a misfit auction where invites should be 11-12, and when we hold a crummy 10 with two-card support a pass should be considered as well.

 

It is not correct to assume because partner didn't open a weak-2 that he has a good opening bid; it might be a weak one just different in its honor disbursement from a weak-2.

[gwnn]

Before I forget: sorry jillybean for hijacking.

 

And fromageGB, are you sure about this? I think normal is to have

 

1H-1NT

pass=includes all balanced hands

2C=minimum with 5H4C or 17+ (or I guess some goodish 4522/4513)

2D=4 diamonds!!

 

Can you show any reference where they recommend bidding 2D without 4 diamonds?

[Fluffy]

Raising hearts is a 3 card limit raise for me, same hand as 1H 1N 2x 3H

3♥ shows a hand that wants to play 4♥ opposite a good hand and 3♥ opposite a bad hand.

 

Don't overthink this, the goal of constructive bidding is to reach sensible contracts not to tell partner what you have.