Definition of natural 2NT response in 2/1

[pbleighton]

In Fred Gitelman's article "Improving 2/1 Game Force - Part 1" in the BBO Articles section, he writes:

 

The solution that I suggest is to use a 2NT response to a major suit opening just like Goren did - as a game-forcing balanced hand with 13-15 HCP (you can play that it could also show 19+ with a 3NT response showing 16-18). The 2NT response can (and frequently does) contain 3 card support for opener's major. 2NT usually should not contain a side 5 card suit (make a 2/1 with that), but if you have a really bad five card suit (like Qxxxx) in an otherwise suitable hand, it may be best to bid 2NT rather than make a 2/1. Opener's rebids after the 2NT bid are natural. Opener will bid another 4 card or longer suit if he has one giving responder a chance to take preference with 3 cards in opener's major. Opener can rebid his major when he has 6 or more cards or bid 3NT or 4NT (quantitative) with 5332. Over opener's 3NT rebid responder may elect to pass with 3 card support for opener's major, especially if he is 4333.

 

As a consequence, a 2/1 response will almost always show a good 5 card or longer suit - a source of tricks. Having this information will frequently help opener decide how well the hands fit and if a slam try is warranted. It will also allow opener to feel more comfortable with raising the 2/1 suit with 3 card support.

 

My questions are:

1) Does this imply that Fred is suggesting that the criteria for the 2NT response to one of a major no longer include the requirement that all unbid suits must be stopped (it seems to do so indirectly, but I may be misreading it).

2) Would this bid be used in response to a bid of one spade if the responder has a 4 card heart suit?  Does the answer vary accoring to the strength of the heart suit?

3) Do 5422 hands qualify for this bid, if the 5 and 4 are in the minors, and are weak?

4) If the answer to 1) is yes, what is your experience with this (if you play it this way) in regard to landing in 3NT contracts with an unstopped suit?  Does it happen more often with this approach than otherwise, resulting in more contracts going down, or do almost all of these contracts wind up in 3NT anyway, so there is no significant net increase in failed 3NT contracts?

[Guest]

Answer to 1 is that "No" all other suits do not have to be stopped. This is no big deal. Pd usually has a stopper, they may not lead the suit; it may break. What is more important is to show 'hand type" - ie a balanced hand in the give point range.

 

You can certainly have a 4 card H suit of any strength. Yow would not bid 2H over 1S on a 4 card suit anyway. Opener can always rebid 3H over 2NT

 

Yes you can have a 5422 provided virtually all of your points are in the 2-2. This is pretty rare however.

 

Ron

[inquiry]

1. No, all side suits do not need to be stopped. Auction will not end in 2NT

 

2. Absolutely. You will never miss a 4-4 heart fit. Opener will now bid 3H and you have found your fit.

 

3. I generally will not have a five card suit for a natural 2NT response, and I seriously doubt I will ever be 5-4-2-2

 

4. It is generally not a problem

 

Be aware that most players do not follow Fred's advice on this 2NT bid. Be sure your parnter of choice plays it this way. Few do.

[easy]

In Fred Gitelman's article "Improving 2/1 Game Force - Part 1" in the BBO Articles section, he writes:

 

The solution that I suggest is to use a 2NT response to a major suit opening just like Goren did - as a game-forcing balanced hand with 13-15 HCP (you can play that it could also show 19+ with a 3NT response showing 16-18). The 2NT response can (and frequently does) contain 3 card support for opener's major. 2NT usually should not contain a side 5 card suit (make a 2/1 with that), but if you have a really bad five card suit (like Qxxxx) in an otherwise suitable hand, it may be best to bid 2NT rather than make a 2/1. Opener's rebids after the 2NT bid are natural. Opener will bid another 4 card or longer suit if he has one giving responder a chance to take preference with 3 cards in opener's major. Opener can rebid his major when he has 6 or more cards or bid 3NT or 4NT (quantitative) with 5332. Over opener's 3NT rebid responder may elect to pass with 3 card support for opener's major, especially if he is 4333.

 

As a consequence, a 2/1 response will almost always show a good 5 card or longer suit - a source of tricks. Having this information will frequently help opener decide how well the hands fit and if a slam try is warranted. It will also allow opener to feel more comfortable with raising the 2/1 suit with 3 card support.

 

My questions are:

1) Does this imply that Fred is suggesting that the criteria for the 2NT response to one of a major no longer include the requirement that all unbid suits must be stopped (it seems to do so indirectly, but I may be misreading it).

2) Would this bid be used in response to a bid of one spade if the responder has a 4 card heart suit?  Does the answer vary accoring to the strength of the heart suit?

3) Do 5422 hands qualify for this bid, if the 5 and 4 are in the minors, and are weak?

4) If the answer to 1) is yes, what is your experience with this (if you play it this way) in regard to landing in 3NT contracts with an unstopped suit?  Does it happen more often with this approach than otherwise, resulting in more contracts going down, or do almost all of these contracts wind up in 3NT anyway, so there is no significant net increase in failed 3NT contracts?

 

1. As i understand it the natuaral forcing 2nt bid does indeed promise stoppers in the unbid suits or length (such as 4small)

 

2. yes, no.

 

3. Generally speaking i would not bid 2n with

 

2 2 5 4 distribution. however if it were

 

Kx  Ak   Jxxxx  qxxx   i mite consider it.

[dageaux]

My questions are:

1) Does this imply that Fred is suggesting that the criteria for the 2NT response to one of a major no longer include the requirement that all unbid suits must be stopped (it seems to do so indirectly, but I may be misreading it).

2) Would this bid be used in response to a bid of one spade if the responder has a 4 card heart suit?  Does the answer vary accoring to the strength of the heart suit?

3) Do 5422 hands qualify for this bid, if the 5 and 4 are in the minors, and are weak?

4) If the answer to 1) is yes, what is your experience with this (if you play it this way) in regard to landing in 3NT contracts with an unstopped suit?  Does it happen more often with this approach than otherwise, resulting in more contracts going down, or do almost all of these contracts wind up in 3NT anyway, so there is no significant net increase in failed 3NT contracts?

 

1) i read it to mean the hand is flat with 13-15 hcp, period. opener can now be more comfortable that a 2 over 1 response is at least 5 cards in length

 

2) flat, 13-15 hcp hands can (and often do) contain 4 card heart suits after 1S

 

3) they can, but if i have a game force hand i'll usually bid my 5 bagger. let's look for a fit

 

4) i like this treatment, it's an excellent way to show an otherwise difficult hand and usually keeps the guesswork (viz dist in responder's 2 over 1 suit) to a minimum. i think 3nt is usually the landing spot anyway.

 

i also like fred's treatment to show the hands that used to be shown with jacoby 2nt, jump shifting in the cheapest suit.

[keylime]

I'm always leery of hands that are balanced with trump fits that don't have the necessary strength to make a G/F trump raise, so at times I'm forced to bid a 4 card minor to set the G/F then jump bid into game (pudding raise).

 

I think any G/F trump raise should show mild slam intentions from the let go -- unfortunately many players use J2NT abusively.

[easy]

I'm always leery of hands that are balanced with trump fits that don't have the necessary strength to make a G/F trump raise, so at times I'm forced to bid a 4 card minor to set the G/F then jump bid into game (pudding raise).

 

I think any G/F trump raise should show mild slam intentions from the let go -- unfortunately many players use J2NT abusively.

 

I agree that j2nt in the generic form leaves much to be desired but i dont understand why you would like a gf trump raise to have slam implications. Seems to me that an important thing to do is set the trump suit and announce game forcing values.

 

Let's here your theory as to why a game forcing raise should at least have some desire to play slam.  :)

[keylime]

Why a G/F raise should show mild slam interest? Really for three reasons:

 

1. If your hand has values in two and only two suits, the percentages tell me that it is under 1/4th of the time slam is probably because partner would have to provide at least 3 of 4 cover cards in your weak suits. Combined with the fact they've opened a major, it is self-evident that unless partner is near 2C opening strength, they simply don't have the goods to get the contract home.

That's why I use pudding raises to show this type of hand: a 2/1 bid followed by a jump into game.

 

2. If you have a hand that has marked shortage, yet is too strong for just a splinter, then G/F raise is for you. I do not AT ALL play unlimited range on splinters because partner is rarely going to drive for slam over the bid. Furthermore, if you're really desiring slam, don't tell the defense what suit NOT to lead. For the record, I play splinters as showing game values and NOTHING OUTSIDE that.

 

3. Lastly, when you have values for slam, but need to make sure all your cards are working, then G/F raise is for you. The last thing you'd want to have opposite that dreamy strong hand we love getting is hearing partner be void, or not having a second suit that fits into our hand. Rarely is slam made on strictly points and power, controls and fit (CONFIT for those Romex fans) is the word of the day. I've had hands where I strove for slam and stopped at game to realize partner's void in my KQJ10 suit and we can only make five when everyone else is in 6 down one. Just because you have strength doesn't guarantee slam, you have to have controls and fit to support any upward evaluation.

[hrothgar]

 

I agree that j2nt in the generic form leaves much to be desired but i dont understand why you would like a gf trump raise to have slam implications. Seems to me that an important thing to do is set the trump suit and announce game forcing values.

 

Let's here your theory as to why a game forcing raise should at least have some desire to play slam.  :)

 

Here is my take.  As usual, your milage may vary.

 

I favor systems in which opening bids are limited and disciplined.  Accordingly, responder is often well positioned to judge the limit of the two hands.

 

I prefer that responder blast to game as quickly as possible with as many hand types as possible.

 

The opponents have much less information available to them and are extremely poorly positioned to know whether or not to balance.

 

Admittedly, we may miss the occasional slam when opener lays down a perfect hand.  However, in the long run, the befits from blasting to an acceptable contract more than outweigh detailed explorations.

 

I play relay systems because I like to bash.

[This actually makes sense]

[bglover]

Good point.

 

I will often forego a J2nt bid with four card support for partner because I am much more intersted in finding out whether we have a double fit.

 

The downside (to me) of J2nt is that it uses up a lot of space just to show a possible interest in slam. Many players automatically use the bid with any hand that contains the right values and 4 card support.

 

If I have a GOOD 4 card or five card suit (let's assume I'm 5422 for this discussion), I am much more interested in finding out if partner has supporting cards in my suit than jumping to 2NT and using up the space.

 

We all have held hands where we have slam interest if partner has the right cards and only the right cards.. I think some players lose sight of that by automatically pulling out J2NT everytime they have 4 card support. (This is also the reason I am not crazy about Bergen raises frankly and only play them when partner insists).

 

In 2/1 bidding part of the beauty of it is that you get to save a level vs. SAYC..you have shown game-going values with your first bid. It was designed to SAVE  a level... all these other bids use up that level. Sometimes you don't need the extra level.. sometimes you do.

 

So, in essence where I have a hand that NEEDS some questions answered by opener, I forego these bids even if the hand is appropriate to them.