Another Signaling Question

[32519]

Does this method of signalling actually work / have any merit i.e. you are defending a suit contract and declarer has started drawing trumps, one partner follows suit high/low (showing interest in the higher ranking unplayed suit), while the other partner follows suit low/high (showing interest in the lower ranking unplayed suit)?

[Zelandakh]

Yes, it is very useful sometimes and many experts use the method.

[JLOGIC]

Most important signal in bridge outside of your trick 1 signal

[32519]

Thanks Justin. As a leading international player, do you have any guidelines / tips / etc when to give heed to partner’s suit preference request and when to ignore or override it e.g. the danger of unnecessarily finessing partner into declarers closed hand?

[JLOGIC]

I am not a leading international player but to me in all bridge hands partner signals you what they have, then you try and figure out the hand and what the best play is. I can't really advise you more than that, that's pretty much what bridge is about. A signal is just another clue to help you figure out what the unseen cards are so that you can make more accurate plays more often.

 

A trump suit preference signal usually comes at an early point in the hand when you know very little and is a key component in you figuring out the hand early on. If you have to make a key shift at trick 4, a trump suit pref signal is gonna help you find it rather than guess which suit, etc.

 

A corrolary to this is that declarers no longer pull trumps and let you in, the put you in immediately to force the guess before you have gotten a suit pref signal from your partner. Very important technique if you are declarer against people who actually know what they're doing.

[lalldonn]

I think the hardest part of trump suit preference is knowing when partner is signalling and when he is just falsecarding or giving them a choice of plays. For example it might often be correct to play the T from Tx, or even the higher x from xx.

[Finch]

I was just going to say what Justin did, that a suit preference signal is to give information to partner about your hand, it's not a demand that he plays a particular suit.

 

And then I was going to say what lalldonn did, that you have to take partner's signal in trumps with a pinch of salt.

 

They've both said that, so I'll add something else.

 

Many people blindly play their trump pips upwards. This gives declarer a huge advantage, looking at say KJxx opposite Axxx if he cashes the ace and the 10 drops, now he can drop Q10 offside (and it's percentage to do so if the 9 is played as well). If you as a defender insist that every trump card is a suit preference signal, then it effectively makes you play pips at "random" and declarer loses the inference.

[barmar]

I think the hardest part of trump suit preference is knowing when partner is signalling and when he is just falsecarding or giving them a choice of plays.

This is true of all defensive signals, isn't it?

 

If you're defending, and you know from the auction and dummy that you hold almost all of the defensive assets, so partner is unlikely to get on lead, don't bother giving true signals -- partner probably can't make use of the info, and it just helps declarer. Conversely, if you're the weak hand, you should probably signal religiously -- partner needs to know about your hand so he can figure out declarer's. Since declarer probably doesn't know about the disparity (unless it's obvious from the auction) he won't know who's being honest and who's playing randomly.

[lalldonn]

It's not as simple as that and not about making random plays. In many situations you definitely want to play the higher or lower of cards that might look like a signal.

 

And it's not like the bridge gods asigned one of us as the weak hand and one as the strong hand. We may be about equal, or not know how strong partner is, or need to signal to the weak hand, or not tell declarer who is weak and who is strong if he is about to figure out our holdings in this suit.

[32519]

No method is without its weaknesses. Partner and I play UDCA on opening leads. Defending a 3NT contract recently partner had no good lead to make (underleading a king or away from qxx). So partner chose to lead the ♣A to have a look at dummy and get a signal from me as to what to do next. I held the queen and the 2 of ♣. I don't want to waste the queen to signal a discontinuance of the suit. So partner sees the 2 as encouraging and continues the suit. All further guessing in the suit is removed for declarer and 3NT lands for a below average for our side.

 

OK, so this is off-topic to the thread title and question but thought I'd post it anyway.

[bluecalm]

This is the most basic signal and every player here play it ranging from novices to experts.

I think it's good idea to combine it with OS'ish idea - that is to have some rules establishing what the most important information is and trump signal (or first side suit we don't give count in) should convey it. Usually that information is high honor in a suit which is most likely to be switched to.

Notice that smith echo is exactly the same idea just called differently.

 

It doesn't matter if you use s/p or substitute attitude for given suit as those are the same thing. If you choose s/p (like in standard trump signal) you give false s/p if you are afraid to mislead partner when it comes to most important suit. If you choose substitute attitude (like in smith echo) you just discourage.

 

If you have any experience with careful signalling you will quickly start expecting specific information once the dummy i placed. It will "well, ok declarer will take this and it looks like we might want to open clubs, let's see if my pd confirms/denies an honor there once declarer touches trumps".

[gnasher]

Many people blindly play their trump pips upwards. This gives declarer a huge advantage, looking at say KJxx opposite Axxx if he cashes the ace and the 10 drops, now he can drop Q10 offside (and it's percentage to do so if the 9 is played as well). If you as a defender insist that every trump card is a suit preference signal, then it effectively makes you play pips at "random" and declarer loses the inference.

In theory declarer should be able to get some of this back, because often he knows what suit the defence should be signalling for. Suppose that I know that the hand over the jack should be signalling for the higher suit, and that he'll always do it if he can. I cash the ace and the 2 apppears offside, so I drop the queen.

 

In practice this doesn't work very well because people don't always give their suit preference signal. That is, they really are randomising their trump spots, but starting with a different definition of "non-random".

 

Also, it's necessary to play randomly when playing high-low from xxx.

[bluecalm]

In theory declarer should be able to get some of this back

 

Does it happen though ?

I mean it seems it me it's rare to be able to benefit. I for example have few people against who I am determined to play for dropping Qx with Axxx - KJxx if T doesn't appear (cause if they have Tx they would always trying to "fool") but I am yet to have chances of executing :)

[inquiry]

You can add another, related signal at notrump contracts as well. That is, on the first suit declarer leads where you are not trying to win the trick, you can use spot cards for "suit preference" (same caveats as above for trump suit preference signal). There are, however other considerations that complicate it when count would be more critical than suit preference, but those are fairly obvious situations.

[dustinst22]

You can add another, related signal at notrump contracts as well. That is, on the first suit declarer leads where you are not trying to win the trick, you can use spot cards for "suit preference" (same caveats as above for trump suit preference signal). There are, however other considerations that complicate it when count would be more critical than suit preference, but those are fairly obvious situations.

 

Do you think this is more useful than say Smith Echo?

 

Great thread, lots of good info here.

[bluecalm]

Do you think this is more useful than say Smith Echo?

 

If you have good enough understanding about what youare showing Smith Echo (aka substite attitude) is exactly the same thing as s/p just expressed differently.