preempts

[LoneMonad]

old school says no voids

i have heard new concepts that include voids

please comment on this controversy

reasons not to include voids

reasons to include them

[the hog]

"old school says no voids"

Does it? How curious.I don't think it does. How else can a pre emptor make a penalty x for an unusual lead, and there are many examples of these. I can certainly have a void when I pre empt.

[aguahombre]

I didn't know it was a controversy. It has never occurred to me not to preempt with the right 7-3-3, 6-4-3, 7-4-2, etc at the appropriate level.

 

We have rules about outside honor cards vs trump quality in early position, but not about voids.

[chasetb]

The only time there's even remotely a controversy is with a hand like ♠Qxxx ♥KQxxxx ♦xxx ♣--- , when we might be better off in Spades than Hearts. Otherwise, a void can make me want to be more aggressive on a pre-empt.

[Vampyr]

These days preempting with a flaw is common, and a void is considered a flaw rather than a contraindication. I personally consider it a big enough flaw that I will generally choose not to open a weak two if I have a void, but I don't think that other styles are ridiculous or even bad.

 

EDIT: The hand above has an additional flaw, a 4-card spade suit, and I would strongly recommend against opening 2♥ in 1st or 2nd.

[Cthulhu D]

"old school says no voids"

Does it? How curious.I don't think it does. How else can a pre emptor make a penalty x for an unusual lead, and there are many examples of these. I can certainly have a void when I pre empt.

 

Larry Cohen addresses the idea of opening a weak 2 with a void, so it's something I suspect that people have brought up before. You're mental not to do it imho. Sometimes it can be a reason to do it. Are you seriously not going to open this 2S (heck, I'd consider 3S) third in at G vs R:

 

S: KJT987

H: -

D: Q982

C: 864

[Vampyr]

third in at G vs R:

 

Of course in this position all discipline goes out the window.

[Cthulhu D]

Of course in this position all discipline goes out the window.

 

 

Yup - though as the opponents almost certainly had an 8 card heart fit and are cold for game atleast, I think it's correct to bid at any vulnerability.

[Vampyr]

Yup - though as the opponents almost certainly had an 8 card heart fit and are cold for game atleast, I think it's correct to bid at any vulnerability.

 

When I do this it's partner who has all the hearts :)

[aguahombre]

When I am 6-4-4 the rules go out the window at any position or colors.

[Siegmund]

There is a pretty firm rule against not having two defensive tricks when you preempt. Having little or no defense is your guarantee that your -800s are better than losing a slam, your -500s are better than losing a game, etc.

 

The void is a hazard, in that if you preempt on a 7330, and the opponents play in your 3-card suit, your hand may unexpectedly produce a defensive ruff -- which isn't a bad thing if your opponents overbid... but is a very bad thing if you are in a contract where both sides are not making, and you are left holding the short end of the stick. Often partner will sacrifice when one trick from your hand isn't enough to beat the opponents, and these sacrifices will be phantoms when you had a bonus ruff coming.

 

I have never shied away from 3-level and higher preempts with a void - even with one ace and a void, taking my chances I don't have 2 defensive tricks - but I and many others learned never to make a weak two with a void, which had more to do with having the constructive value of your hand confined to a modest range discoverable by your partner.

[EricK]

You rarely have the perfect hand for a pre-empt, and traditional advice, as I understand it, was not to pre-empt if your hand had a number of flaws i.e. was too far from the "perfect" hand. A void was one such flaw, weak spot cards was another, too much strength outside the suit versus inside the suit was a third and so on.

[Fluffy]

I don't normally open weak 2s with voids, because I open at the 3 level.

[aguahombre]

A void is a flaw to me, only when partner is the one void in my suit.

[Free]

The higher the preempt, the longer your suit will be, and the more chance you have of holding a void. If you like to pass an 8-3-2-0 be my guest, but I would just preempt...

 

At 2-level it's a bit different because holding a void means holding a side 4 card suit and a side 3 card suit, 2 potential alternative strains to play. Nevertheless I usually open them anyway, unless with a side 4 card Major.

[barmar]

I wonder how much "do as I say, not as I do" there is among bridge authors. Is it just because you necessarily need a different strategy when playing in the Vanderbilt or Bermuda Bowl than when playing against LOLs at the club?

[PhilKing]

I wonder how much "do as I say, not as I do" there is among bridge authors. Is it just because you necessarily need a different strategy when playing in the Vanderbilt or Bermuda Bowl than when playing against LOLs at the club?

 

Most bridge authors have never played in the Bermuda Bowl. :(

[barmar]

Most bridge authors have never played in the Bermuda Bowl. :(

When I look at my bridge bookshelf, I see books by Mike Lawrence, Larry Cohen, Marty Bergen, Ron Anderson, Eric Rodwell, and Jeff Rubens. I don't know how many of them have played specifically in the BB, but they play in many comparable tournaments.

[PhilKing]

When I look at my bridge bookshelf, I see books by Mike Lawrence, Larry Cohen, Marty Bergen, Ron Anderson, Eric Rodwell, and Jeff Rubens. I don't know how many of them have played specifically in the BB, but they play in many comparable tournaments.

 

Bird, Smith, Segal, Hardy, Rexford, King ....

[Lord Molyb]

Larry Cohen addresses the idea of opening a weak 2 with a void, so it's something I suspect that people have brought up before. You're mental not to do it imho. Sometimes it can be a reason to do it. Are you seriously not going to open this 2S (heck, I'd consider 3S) third in at G vs R:

 

S: KJT987

H: -

D: Q987

C: 8642

I'd call the director.

[mikestar13]

For preempts, I generally treat a hand with void as if it had a stiff instead. More offense due to the better shape + more defense due to the possible ruff and the potential bad trump break for the enemy = approximately the same ODR (offense/defense ratio) = bid it to the same level.

[Cthulhu D]

I'd call the director.

 

Fixed!