Bid the same values twice?

[JLOGIC]

AJT x AJ9x AQxxx

 

You open a strong club, LHO bids 1H, your partner bids 2D, RHO bids 2H, you bid 3H showing short hearts and 4 diamonds, and partner bids 3N. Do you bid?

 

For what its worth, partner with a double heart stopper and Hxxxx of diamonds would have started with 1N, so you can infer he has either KQxxx of diamonds, or 1 heart stopper, or an unbalanced hand like 5431. Imps.

[gnasher]

I'd pass. I don't think I have much extra, and I don't think my hand is unusually suit-oriented. The aces are nice, but the quacks are not, and the clubs are quite manky. Opposite a hand like xx KQxx KQxxx xx, 3NT is much rather better than 5♦.

 

Edit: removed 14th card from the example hand.

Edited March 5, 2013 by gnasher

[hrothgar]

I'm torn.

 

Arguably, the opponent's Heart fit combined with my shortage cause my hand to revalue.

(Yes, partner has some wasted values in Hearts, but the opponent's have more)

 

If I have some way to show club length, I'll do so

Otherwise I'll pass

[ArtK78]

I am finding this hard to understand.

 

First, Justin states that partner cannot have a double heart stop or he would have started with 1NT rather than 2♦. Opener then shows his hand - short hearts, 4 diamonds - and partner bids 3NT. Again, from the initial explanation, partner cannot have a double heart stop but is suggesting 3NT opposite your known heart shortness. He must have a black suit K, so I pass 3NT, hoping to take 5 diamonds, a heart and 3 or 4 black suit tricks.

 

Andy then posts a 14 card hand (OK, so assume a doubleton small spade) with a double heart stop. Sure, 3NT is the right spot with this hand, but Justin said that partner would have bid 1NT if he held this hand.

 

Slam cannot be an option on this hand, so the choices of possible contracts are 3NT, 4♦ (could be right but it would be hard to stop there) or 5♦. 3NT seems like the most likely game, so I am passing.

[gnasher]

Andy then posts a 14 card hand (OK, so assume a doubleton small spade) with a double heart stop. Sure, 3NT is the right spot with this hand, but Justin said that partner would have bid 1NT if he held this hand.

 

Can I offer ll you a deal? I'll correct my 14-carder, and you reread the original post.

[ArtK78]

Can I offer ll you a deal? I'll correct my 14-carder, and you reread the original post.

OK. What you are saying is that with very strong diamonds partner would bid 2♦ even if he had a double heart stopper. I'll buy that.

 

Still seems right under any circumstances to pass 3NT.

[GreenMan]

Seems as if the question of working values is important, right? If partner's ♥ stop is anything besides Axx(x) then in a diamond contract it's pretty much wasted opposite our stiff, I'd say.

[straube]

I think I'd remove. A high percentage of the time opener will have a stiff honor and we need to find 3N when responder has a stopper and opener has help. I'd like to encourage responder to show a stopper, counting on opener to remove without that help.

[gszes]

pass

This hand resembles all too closely what i said i had

during the bidding lets leave the judgement p to partner.

 

 

[mikeh]

I started a post and deleted it as I found myself meandering all over the place.

 

However, I pull.

 

I have several reasons.

 

1. Slam is remote...surely he wouldn't have bid 3N with, to use a simple example, xx Axx Kxxxx Kxx, but even if I am correct in that, slam isn't impossible.

 

2. I don't see this as bidding the same values twice. I have far more controls than one usually has with a minimum 1♣ opener and my diamond J might be important (it might also be irrelevant, of course).

 

3. My view is that while one can construct hands on which 3N is better, there will be more hands on which 5♦ is safer: I am thinking of Hxxxx diamonds with a single stopper. While I am not saying partner can't hold Andy's example, I think the opps rate to have a better heart suit that a 5-3 missing the KQ. We're usually going to be ok in either game with no diamond loser (I mean, in Andy's hand, we'd consider ourselves pretty unlucky if they led the 'right' black suit and were able to beat us in diamonds).

 

Add to this the remote chance that we can reach a slam, and I pull.

 

xx A10x Kxxxx J10x is an example of a minimum hand for partner on which I'd like to be in slam, especially on a heart lead, tho it isn't terrible on any lead, even a spade. We might not get there opposite that, but there are surely hands consistent with the auction on which slam is both good and still reachable, without him having made a bad call with 3N.

[the hog]

Pass. Why? Justin presumably plays with v. good partners. Partner heardand understood the bidding and decided that 3NT is the spot to play. Ergo pass is obvious.

[Free]

If I read it correctly, partner can easily have a double stopper ♥ when he has good ♦s or an unbalanced hand.

 

Partner decided 3NT is the best spot based on his knowledge of our hand and the obvious knowledge of his own hand. We only know our own hand and have very limited information about partner's hand. Partner knows more than we do, so I don't feel the need to overrule his decision with fewer information. I would pass.

[gnasher]

xx A10x Kxxxx J10x is an example of a minimum hand for partner on which I'd like to be in slam, especially on a heart lead, tho it isn't terrible on any lead, even a spade. We might not get there opposite that, but there are surely hands consistent with the auction on which slam is both good and still reachable, without him having made a bad call with 3N.

I don't think he can have that when he bids 3NT: he has a single heart-stopper, decent controls, and some club honours that could be really useful. He knows that club honours are more likely to be valuable than spade honours, because I'll often be 3145 but presumably I can't be 5143.

[Finch]

I don't understand why I can't be 5143, if partner makes a positive in diamonds surely I'd always support them?

 

I really don't think partner should have one heart stop equal to the ace for 3NT opposite a known singleton heart. I feel nervous about it, but I think I pass 3NT. How about Qx K10x KQxxx xxx opposite?

[gnasher]

I don't understand why I can't be 5143, if partner makes a positive in diamonds surely I'd always support them?

How would you find a spade fit when you have one? Or wouldn't you want to?

[rhm]

I do not understand why slam should be remote. If partner has the ♣K slam rates to be good.

It is a tough decision between Pass and 4♣. I would not criticize either decision.

I would bid 4♣ because it is not very likely that 3NT is our last making game and if partner has something like

 

♠xx,♥KTx,♦KQxxx,♣JTx

 

6♣ will make when 3NT does.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

♠xx,♥KTx,♦KQxxx,♣JTx

There's that magic ♣J10x again.

[rhm]

There's that magic ♣J10x again.

I am not playing partner for specifically ♣JTx, but magic would be the ♣K.

I disagree that this hand is minimum or unsuitable for going on. This hand has been improved by the bidding.

If slam is not on 5♦ will often be as good a contract and sometimes better than 3NT.

Partner has practically no choice but bid 3NT here with a heart stop missing all these first round controls.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

 

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

 

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

[dake50]

Does 3H also show good controls?

Or would partner expect good controls to make

some other bid/continuation?

Is that the jist of your question?

Control heavy shown by 3H instead of 3D?

Then my hand is well-described.

If not good controls in 3H, do I owe a cotinuation?

He's looking at HK10x,KJx not HA10x isn't he?

With a GF of quacks?

Quits when 3H already showed good controls.

[rhm]

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

 

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

 

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

Even on your construction (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x) 5♦ is a likely make and so is 4NT, which I would expect partner to bid over 4♣.

Besides partner might have preferred an immediate notrump bid with that hand.

If partner has 4 hearts chances for slam increase.

Your claim that partner has a good picture of our hand just because our hand is suitable for a 3♥ bid is an exaggeration and partner had to take a decision whether to leave 3NT behind or not.

It is not like he had plenty of other choices left below 3NT.

Change your hand to xx KJTx KQxxx Kx and I want to see the expert who would bid anything but 3NT in response to 3♥.

♥Axx is an unlikely holding but other holdings like ♥AJ9x might be possible.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[JLOGIC]

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

 

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

 

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

 

Axx of hearts is an insult, but is xx KQxx KQxxx Kx an insult? Maybe it is, 5422 is good and the KQ of hearts could be useful, but it's still an aceless 13.

 

Can partner ever hold the HA? Kxx AJTx Kxxxx x? Though it's unclear how good of a slam that is I guess, seems alright at least.

 

 

Anyways, if you bid 4C your partner bids 5C. Are we bidding slam now?

[JLOGIC]

Also, I was thinking partner can have nutted hearts with the ace which will be good since he will be 3451 a lot (Qxx AQTx KTxxx x is a pretty good slam?), or 5422 with KQ of diamonds (xx AQTx KQxxx xx is pretty good)? Should partner be bidding 3N with the 2nd hand though, maybe not, he could recongize thats gotta be a good hand for us, so I'm not sure if that is a valid construction.

 

Anyways, I dunno I bid 4C and got 5C so obv that was pretty good but maybe it was just lucky. Still not sure about this hand, it def felt weird to bid on (because of the title of this thread) but when I was constructing hands it seemed like there were enough slam hands and 5D was usually fine.

[mikeh]

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

 

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

 

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

 

Hey: I thought we were being nice to each other :D

 

Of course he is unlikely to hold Axx in hearts, but my decision to pull wasn't based on playing him for that holding. I started the post by observing that in my opinion slam was remote: if I were playing him for Axx in hearts, I'd be almost driving to slam, not merely aiming at 5♦ while catering to a remote upside possibility.

 

Axx isn't (by a long shot) the only slam suitable holding: there are many others that are more consistent with 3N.

 

One point that we should bear in mind, and has been stated by others, is that the auction didn't give partner, who is looking at no Aces, unless he has the heart A, any room below 3N. If he has a hand on which 3N is to be the contract, he has to bid it, and trust us to judge correctly when our hand is too suit-oriented to pass. IOW, I think partner didn't bid 3N to end the auction but to suggest that on the information he had, he wanted to offer 3N.

 

I can well understand that we can feel that our hand isn't one on which we should pull. Various good players, including you, have given your reasons. I mildly disagree, but not primarily because I think slam is 'likely'. I think either game is likely to be, on balance, about as good as the other and there remains a remote chance of reaching a good slam (without his having Axx in hearts!) that we cannot reach by passing 3N. I'd give bidding (presumably 4♣) 100 and passing 90 or 95: I think it that close.

[Fluffy]

there is a 3 count that gives me a shot at slam: xxx xxx Kxxxx xx, for me this is enough arguent to move on, there is a big chance that slam will be on a finese or something, but that never scared me.