bidding after double, redouble ?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=s9532hakdq87ca763]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 2♦    Dbl   RDbl

 

Hi,

Playing IMPS, all NV what should I bid here? I passed hoping partner could reopen or happy with penalty X.

(more bidding to come after this round :) )

Thanks

jillybean

[luke warm]

pass might work out well, but the ♦Q isn't placed well... i'd have to know what xx meant, whether just diamonds or also points.. the choices, other than pass, are between 2nt leb and a forcing 3 bid.. you're way too strong for 2nt, so now 3♣ or 3♠ are your choices... i think i'd bid 3♣ forcing... this could be wayyy bad :)

[jillybean]

I don't know what the xx meant, the bidding continued:

 

West North East South

 2♦    Dbl   RDbl  Pass

 Pass  2♥    Dbl   

[luke warm]

i'd pass now, i think... i don't expect the diamond opener to bid again and 2h looks good from here... if redouble here, it gives bidding op another chance

[jillybean]

and the bidding continues....

 

West North East South

 

 2♦    Dbl   RDbl  Pass

 Pass  2♥    Dbl   Pass

 3♦    Pass  Pass  

[luke warm]

that's why i'd have bid 3♣ earlier... i'd ask my rho what the rdbl meant and what the x of 2♥ meant... i'm entitled to that info, or at least i'm entitled to know what his partner expects it to mean... evidently your lho took both bids to show diamond support... i don't believe it's true though, at least not the x of 2♥.. he can bid 3♥ or some number of diamonds, x can be misunderstood...

 

after an original forcing 3♣, you can bid 3♠ over partner's 3♥... he'd then know you're 4xx4(5) and can do what seems right... btw, a lot of (most?) people would bid 3♠ instead of 3♣... i'd rather not if 3♣ is forcing

 

i guess i'd bid 3nt, sigh... i'm too afraid of a 4/2 heart fit

[jillybean]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sj7hq973dak5ckt52&w=st84ht8djt9432c94&e=sakq6hj6542d6cqj8&s=s9532hakdq87ca763]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 2♦    Dbl   RDbl  Pass

 Pass  2♥    Dbl   Pass

 3♦    Pass  Pass  3♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass 

 

Thanks for the replies - 3nt was top board :)

 

Not really knowing what was going on but thinking we should be in something I bid 3♥ (-1) :(

I wasn't sure of the ♦ to bid 3nt.

[Guest Jlall]

or at least i'm entitled to know what his partner expects it to mean...

you definitely aren't. You are entitled to partnership agreements based on actual agreements or knowledge from past sequences. If none of those are present (which is common in weird auctions) then you know as much as he does. He doesn't have to tell you what he THINKS a bid means based on his best guess and use of his own bridge logic. You're supposed to also be able to think.

[pbleighton]

"You are entitled to partnership agreements based on actual agreements or knowledge from past sequences. If none of those are present (which is common in weird auctions) then you know as much as he does. He doesn't have to tell you what he THINKS a bid means based on his best guess and use of his own bridge logic. You're supposed to also be able to think."

 

I mostly agree with you, Justin, except that:

1) Sometimes it's a fine line between "knowledge from past sequences" and blind guesses - informed guesses based on a knowledge of partnership style.

2) If I am asked what a bid means, I will give an answer unless I truly have no idea. If it's an informed guess versus an agreement, I will communicate that as well. However, I won't volunteer an informed guess.

 

Is this consistent with what you meant?

 

Peter

[Flame]

Ouch this is so triable it hurts.

You were 50% dead and for some weird resson your opponents decided to help you and bid 3D, why on earth did you bid 3H when 2H was a disaster ? When you have such a beutiful double on 3D.

[Flame]

And now ill explain to you what we are doing after a redouble.

a redouble mean "partner lets double them and kick their butts"

after getting redouble we know we are in a bad situation and our goal is to servive.

So we are looking for a fit, doesnt have to be a great fit, doesnt even have to be the best fit we have, but we just dont want to go higher then necassary so we go slow, from buttom to top making sure we wont pass a suit which we can play.

Now to the point :

2D D redouble ?

all bids are natural, but why bid and not pass ? if i have xxxx in spade and xx in heart i can pass, partner will bid heart but i can still bid spade, showing i got the other suits. (this is imo what you should have done here, but why 3H why why :()

Now what if you had xx in spade and xxxx in heart ? this is completetly different, if you pass, partner will bid 2sp and now we might miss a 4-3 heart fit (rarly a 4-4)

So with short heart and even 4 spade you can bid 2sp. it should be atleast 2 card different between the suits, with 4-3 you just pass.

[luke warm]

or at least i'm entitled to know what his partner expects it to mean...

you definitely aren't. You are entitled to partnership agreements based on actual agreements or knowledge from past sequences. If none of those are present (which is common in weird auctions) then you know as much as he does. He doesn't have to tell you what he THINKS a bid means based on his best guess and use of his own bridge logic. You're supposed to also be able to think.

i agree and that's what i meant.. if i asked and he says "we have no p'ship agreement" that's one thing.. but most partnerships do have such agreements on the auction shown

 

of course he doesn't have to tell me what he merely thinks it means, but that's not the same as what he *expects* it to mean, based on understanding

[jillybean]

Ouch this is so triable it hurts.

Ouch this is so ...what? Is triable a synonym for stupid? Or do you mean tribal? :(

 

I passed 2♥X thinking we would make it and not knowing what else to bid - (thats why I post these questions in the B/I forum) I rarely encounter a re-X :)

 

jillybean

[keylime]

That opening preempt is WORSE than obscene. The redouble, almost as bad. Failing to hit 3H, maybe the smartest bid in this strange auction.

[pbleighton]

"That opening preempt is WORSE than obscene."

 

Agree. I've rarely seen a clearer 4D opener. What an underbid :(

 

Peter

[badderzboy]

I must admit I would bid 3♦ over the DBL & RDBL to tell partner I have good points but no long suit of my own and what's his best suit or to bid NT which I would hope he would bid given his hand over the 3♦ bid?

 

Steve

[easy]

If i were sitting at the table , held the xxxx, ak,qxx,axxx and heard

 

2d - x - xx - ?? i would start looking to see who my pard is and who the opponents are...... because this auction is virtually impossible. 2d weak(5-10?)

x = opening hand with shortness in diamonds, or a big balanced hand

xx = pard i have a good hand and they have screwed up.If they bid something you can double pls do.

(hummmmmm. someone is psyching! Since my pard "never" psychs i must assume one of the opponents is.)

 

When pard said x i wanted to play game but now with the xx maybe 4s wont make.

 

My regular partner and i have an agreement that covers all x -xx auctions that take place at the 2-level or higher......pass by the partner of the takeout doubler is a penalty pass.I would opt for pass and would expect the opponents to go down big time.

 

 

When looking at the actual hands of the players im not sure which bids i dislike the most. the 2d opener, my pard's takeout double or the xx by rho(unless it was some systemic runout request). What was pard planning to do when i bid spades......rebid nt??

[Flame]

Ouch this is so triable it hurts.

Ouch this is so ...what? Is triable a synonym for stupid? Or do you mean tribal? :P

 

I passed 2♥X thinking we would make it and not knowing what else to bid - (thats why I post these questions in the B/I forum) I rarely encounter a re-X :)

 

jillybean

Some bridge actions just makes me want to cry, this is because of my bridge history mostly with one partner which i love (my mother) but sometime killed me at the table, when i read this action i remembered actions on which i was at the table and just wanted to cry because i couldnt understand how can she do this to me. A tip when someone give you a penalty double at the 2 level, and for some resson god loves you and send an angle to save you , dont bid the same suit at the 3 level, especially not when you know or almost know you are in a 4-2 trump fit. (in general dont compete 3 level over 3 level without a 9 card fit)

[jillybean]

if i have xxxx in spade and xx in heart i can pass, partner will bid heart but i can still bid spade, showing i got the other suits. (this is imo what you should have done here, but why 3H why why :P)

I would understand a ♠ bid here as showing ♠ stopped.

Youre saying my partner must have points for the double, (some in ♠) so a ♠ bid here is only showing ♠xxxx.

 

  2♦    Dbl   RDbl  Pass

 Pass  2♥

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=s9532hakdq87ca763]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

[Flame]

if i have xxxx in spade and xx in heart i can pass, partner will bid heart but i can still bid spade, showing i got the other suits. (this is imo what you should have done here, but why 3H why why :P)

I would understand a ♠ bid here as showing ♠ stopped.

Youre saying my partner must have points for the double, (some in ♠) so a ♠ bid here is only showing ♠xxxx.

 

  2♦    Dbl   RDbl  Pass

 Pass  2♥

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=s9532hakdq87ca763]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

First its importent that you will understand the bidding in general and not with the effect of looking at your hands, as i explained before, when we get rouble our goal is to servive, to land in a fit or sub fit , some 4-3 as low as we can and hopfully without being doubled. the process is bidding slowly not bypassing a potential 4-3 fit. So lets say the bidding went

(1D)-D-(RD) ? (just the same as after 2D opening,but more common)

now what are 1h/1s/2c ?

and what is pass ?

lets begin with the pass, this isnt like (1d) D (P) p

which shows long diamond suit.

A pass after a rdbl is only saying, i got nothing special to show you, i think its better that you bid first. pass as being a hand which want to hear partner, usually doesnt have a one good suit but rather support for 3 suits or atleast 2 suits.

When is this pass not a right ? when we will have a problem with partner action after the double, in this case we rather bid a suit.

Now examples

(1D) - D- ®- ?

1. we have 4-3 or 3-4 or even 5-4 or 4-5 we will pass let partner bid his suit, we are in no rush and anything he bids suits us (aslong as partner also awre of the slowly up the line strategy)

2. what if we have 5 hearts and 2-3 spades, if we pass partner will many times bid spades (for example when he got 4 spades and 3 hearts) and we lost our 5-3 heart fit for a 4-3 or 4-2 fit, as this is not what we want, we will bid 1H with this hand.

3. now we have 4 hearts and 2 spades, again if we pass parter with 4 spades and 3 heart will bid spades and we lost 4-3 heart to 4-2 spade, so with 4-2 we will usually bid 1h rather then pass. in some cases we might still decide to pass this 4-2, maybe with small 4 and good 2, but we will know what the risks are.

4. we have 4 spades and 2 hearts. if we pass partner with 4 hearts and 3 spades will bid 1h, we will correct this to 1s, and no harm done, so with this shape we will not consider bidding 1s as we did in example 2.

5. 5 spades and 2 hearts, you might think we should pass, and if partner bid H, we correct this to spade, but this strategy is wrong, lets again imagine partner with 4 hearts and 3 spades, we should just bid spade ourself, now whats wrong with the passing and correcting ? the wrong is that this bid will usually show what we had in example 4: 4 spades and 2 hearts, this mean we have 7 cards left in the minors, partner might prefer to land there instead of spade, but since we have 5 spades and less minors we better just bid 2sp ourselfs.

6. 5 spades and 3 hearts- now this is a dilema, if we are sure partner's double show atleast 3 in each major, i would easly bid spade, but with weak spades, and not sure about 3 spades in partner hands, pass is an option, its has the benifit of trying to escape undoubled, we first try 2h, if this get double, we try the spade, still with 5 spades its usually pay to bid it directly.

7. we have a club suit - same principle, bidding it directly mean we are certain that this is the right contract, this mean the clubs are really good, and the majors are raltively bad.

Hope this clears things up abit.

Again this specific situation was a bit different since you were strong but being strong doesnt mean you have to play, if you dont have a fit let them play it double.

(read choen's book to bid or not to bid, and you will understand this much better)

[jillybean]

Thanks , I have ordered the book !