In the well

[cherdano]

Let's make a post here whenever a BBFer is in the well on bridgewinners.

 

Today it's jdonn, go an ask him all these embarrassing questions!

[Cyberyeti]

I see Han started on that :)

[JLOGIC]

Haha added a few.

 

Just a question, Arend you said:

 

"You could surely make a good living as a bridge pro if you wanted to. You would become a better bridge player, as you say above.

But you have chosen not do that. What led you to this decision? Were you ever close to becoming a full-time bridge player?"

 

Just curious, did you mean this? Jdonn is a great player and a great guy, so I am not saying that this SHOULD not be true, but the truth is being a full time professional is very competitive. If you think this is automatic for jdonn (or anyone trying to break in) then it is probably underrated by most people how difficult it is to get enough work to do it full time.

 

Just as an example, jdonn is one of my closest friends, and I think the world of his bridge game (and social skills with clients). It should be a no brainer that if a gig came up for a regional I would recommend jdonn. However, you would then have to remember that usually I would want the work myself. Usually I don't play with the client, so the client would have a partner. So jdonn would be my partner, fine, but I don't have as much of a partnership with him as I do with Kevin Bathurst or Joe Grue, 2 people who are also 2 of my closest friends who I think very highly of. And there would be less risk for me, they are my regular partners and have big names.

 

Now say that those 2 were somehow not available (strange, since they are full time bridge pros). Now maybe I could recommend jdonn. But what about the people who helped me get started with my bridge career, who went out on a limb for me selflessly to get me work. Guys like John Kranyak, Gavin Wolpert, John Hurd, Chris Compton etc. Again, close friends who have big names and are great players and great guys, all of whom I've played with more than I've played with jdonn.

 

Jdonn hit on it correctly, the way in is a good partnership, it is much easier to get hired as a pair than as a player. But again, it would take a semi-parlay of me having work for the regional that I'm being asked about, and me being asked about it, and the people needing a pair. At best I could then recommend clee-jdonn, but again, what about Vince-Kran or Hurd-Wooldridge or Balicki-Zmud, why are they gonna go with clee-jdonn who are less well known? So, they have to probably really like clee-jdonn (this is where networking at tournaments comes in).

 

Getting started is tough though. I would be the most natural person to help jdonn out with something like this, and you see it's harder than it seems to do so even for me, one of his best friends who is a bridge pro.

 

The main thing to remember is that regional clients really don't grow on trees. National clients for a good pair are much easier to find, because there are far more clients. How many people are playing a lot of regionals? You can rule out people who are working, maybe they'll play 1 or 2 but generally they would take all their vacation time on the big tourneys. You need retired people or wives of rich people, and then you are competing in a small player pool with Hampson, Passell, B-Z, Meckwell, etc etc. This is why MANY good bridge players, and most of the non super-elite end up with regular jobs and only playing pro at the 3 nationals/trials and maybe a regional or two.

 

That said, I truly believe jdonn if he got his chance, esp playing with clee, would keep the work since he is a great player and a great guy. And once you get that first main regional client, you become more visible, have more chances to impress the top guys who could be influential in getting you more work, and it snowballs from there. But it's tough to quit your job hoping you get that chance.

[kenberg]

I was unaware of the Well and I think it is a great idea.

[Phil]

JDonn (if you are reading this), saw your note later and sorry I could not join you in the well yesterday. Not sure I'd have much to add other that that its great that you've had success in bridge, and more importantly, your career and life.

[Phil]

but the truth is being a full time professional is very competitive.

 

Especially after 2008. Prior to '08, it seemed like all of the full-time players could keep a full dance card and many "B" pros could get a lot of work as well. But even today, are pairs like B-Z really looking hard for gigs?

 

In the past five years, it seems there are many clients that have stopped hiring. There are many "A-" pros that haven't been able to get a lot of work and its been hard for many of them. There are a few clients on the scene, and has the economy improves, I expect to see hiring increasing.

[jjbrr]

can't believe jdonn both was prepared for the 5 year olds question and missed so magnificently.

 

7? smh

[lalldonn]

can't believe jdonn both was prepared for the 5 year olds question and missed so magnificently.

 

7? smh

Please enlighten me. FWIW two people replied, one thought it was 3 and one thought it was 10+. So I'm not the most crazy no matter what!

[jjbrr]

too low

 

7 might be about right if you allow yourself to get surrounded and swarmed all at once but you'd never let that happen!

[cherdano]

The real challenge is how many 5-year olds you can take on playing soccer!

[cherdano]

Just a question, Arend you said:

 

"You could surely make a good living as a bridge pro if you wanted to. You would become a better bridge player, as you say above.

But you have chosen not do that. What led you to this decision? Were you ever close to becoming a full-time bridge player?"

 

Just curious, did you mean this? Jdonn is a great player and a great guy, so I am not saying that this SHOULD not be true, but the truth is being a full time professional is very competitive. If you think this is automatic for jdonn (or anyone trying to break in) then it is probably underrated by most people how difficult it is to get enough work to do it full time.

This was a serious question.

Well, I have seen bridge pros who are much worse at bridge than Josh, and Josh is a much nicer guy as well. (Of course I am biased since I am friends with him, but I think he comes of as a very nice guy to strangers as well.)

So I was assuming he could make a decent living. Of course it depends on what your standard of "a decent living" is, and maybe they are just paying casino managers in Las Vegas too high of a salary :P

Anyway, my assumption wasn't that Josh could quit his job tomorrow and make the same income as a bridge pro the day after. But if he did quit, and let be known that he is looking for jobs, I thought he would find enough regular clients within a year or two.

[lalldonn]

too low

 

7 might be about right if you allow yourself to get surrounded and swarmed all at once but you'd never let that happen!

I stand by it, I think you grossly underestimate all of how easily they would get you down, how badly you would do once you are down and they are all over you, and how weak I am.

[Fluffy]

I have a 5 year niece, and last time I saw her I was like, she is only 5?, I had a missconception of how big a 5 year old is. She is almost 6 though.

[CSGibson]

too low

 

7 might be about right if you allow yourself to get surrounded and swarmed all at once but you'd never let that happen!

 

I think its probably 20+ if you ignore your moral compass, and do things like throwing some 5 year old at the others, etc. But then again, I'm a large fella, so it probably differs from Josh.

[jjbrr]

I stand by it, I think you grossly underestimate all of how easily they would get you down, how badly you would do once you are down and they are all over you, and how weak I am.

 

I think you overestimate how easily seven 5-year-olds could take you down if you were actively trying to prevent them from taking you down (and I agree that as soon as they prevent you from standing upright the show is over for all intents and purposes).

 

I'm curious what strategy you envision they'd employ and also how an aggressive counterattack wouldn't beat it.

[Mbodell]

Now say that those 2 were somehow not available (strange, since they are full time bridge pros). Now maybe I could recommend jdonn. But what about the people who helped me get started with my bridge career, who went out on a limb for me selflessly to get me work. Guys like John Kranyak, Gavin Wolpert, John Hurd, Chris Compton etc. Again, close friends who have big names and are great players and great guys, all of whom I've played with more than I've played with jdonn.

 

Jdonn hit on it correctly, the way in is a good partnership, it is much easier to get hired as a pair than as a player. But again, it would take a semi-parlay of me having work for the regional that I'm being asked about, and me being asked about it, and the people needing a pair. At best I could then recommend clee-jdonn, but again, what about Vince-Kran or Hurd-Wooldridge or Balicki-Zmud, why are they gonna go with clee-jdonn who are less well known? So, they have to probably really like clee-jdonn (this is where networking at tournaments comes in).

 

Getting started is tough though. I would be the most natural person to help jdonn out with something like this, and you see it's harder than it seems to do so even for me, one of his best friends who is a bridge pro.

 

The main thing to remember is that regional clients really don't grow on trees. National clients for a good pair are much easier to find, because there are far more clients. How many people are playing a lot of regionals? You can rule out people who are working, maybe they'll play 1 or 2 but generally they would take all their vacation time on the big tourneys. You need retired people or wives of rich people, and then you are competing in a small player pool with Hampson, Passell, B-Z, Meckwell, etc etc. This is why MANY good bridge players, and most of the non super-elite end up with regular jobs and only playing pro at the 3 nationals/trials and maybe a regional or two.

 

Is there not a market for price competition? The normal way an "unproven" product competes with a more established brand would be with a discount. Presumably clee-jdonn would charge a client less than Meckwell (or any other better known established pair) and there might then be a reason to take clee-jdonn over an established pair because of the $ savings. Obviously this very might well mean that Jdonn would make much less than he makes today as a casino employee. But I guess your point is there aren't enough clients so the list of established pairs already goes down to cover all the paying clients (more or less), and there is a lower limit to what a pro pair can get paid as you obviously have to get paid more in aggregate than the cost of travel and meals associated with attending the tournament (unless you are only semi-pro and developing reputation or what not where I guess near break even might be enough).

[cherdano]

5-year olds? Just run away, they will run after you, and you can take them on one-by-one.

[lalldonn]

I think you overestimate how easily seven 5-year-olds could take you down if you were actively trying to prevent them from taking you down (and I agree that as soon as they prevent you from standing upright the show is over for all intents and purposes).

 

I'm curious what strategy you envision they'd employ and also how an aggressive counterattack wouldn't beat it.

This is how I see it going down. Obviously they would try to swarm me in a mob. Ok so I run, and at some point one of them is getting a bit seperated from the mob so I decide to take him out. I elusively skirt around the mob and kick him, and he is down crying. That process repeats itself again as I keep running around. Now I'm getting a bit tired from all this running, which is not just in a straight line but has lots of changes of direction and faking them out and stopping to kick kids. So on my next attempt I'm a bit slower and less agile. As I'm trying to kick the straggler one of the kids grabs my other leg. This makes me miss and go off balance. I don't fall but I'm trying to regain my balance and peal the kid off my leg. As I do that all the other kids reach me, grab my other leg, they are probably biting and clawing. And down I go. Maybe after this time one of the crying kids I already kicked has come back and joined the mob. And there is no escape.

 

Chris I know you're a pretty big guy but you have no idea the amount of money I would bet on the 20+ kids against you. If you stop to pick up one kid to throw them, all the other kids have reached you.

[jjbrr]

I strongly think you could get a knee or elbow to the face of enough of them before you allow them to swarm you that 7 simply aren't a threat.

 

I also think any strategy that involves picking up one of the attackers either to throw him or to use him as a weapon is hugely -EV.

[gwnn]

In which scenario would you take on more 5-year-olds:

-they have (small) bats and you have a knife or

-they have knives and you have a bat?

[jjbrr]

In which scenario would you take on more 5-year-olds:

-they have (small) bats and you have a knife or

-they have knives and you have a bat?

http://i.imgur.com/Zjwo4.gif

[CSGibson]

Chris I know you're a pretty big guy but you have no idea the amount of money I would bet on the 20+ kids against you. If you stop to pick up one kid to throw them, all the other kids have reached you.

 

yeah, I'm ok with that. of 20 kids, only 8 or so can be attacking at any one time if I am standing in an open space, so there's a limit to how much effective force they can deliver. 5 year olds weigh about 40 pounds each, and don't have great balance or strength. If I were to go down, I'd crush 6 underneath me. Oh, and I'd make sure to brush off the people's elbow. I'm assuming that I wouldn't stop to pick up the kid, that the kid would have reached me and that I am peeling them off in order to throw at the others. Also, I don't think kicking is a great idea - you don't want to weaken your base, your big advantage is that they are attacking your legs, not your air/eyes/etc. punching, yes. sweeping strokes that throw them around into walls/each other also work.

 

The only things I'd be concerned about is repeated crotch attacks and tripping over them so that I get swarmed. That being said, I don't think that I'd stay down the first time I went down. I also wouldn't attack my own air by running around like a loon. That wouldn't be playing to my strengths. Instead, I am going to find a good wall, put it at my back, and use it as another weapon by pushing kids heads into it. Perhaps I could further limit access to me by building walls of unconscious kids around me.

 

To be fair, I've worked daycare and had a bunch of kids mock-attack me at the same time, so I think I have a decent idea as to strategy. That being said, I would bet on the kids too, because I personally could not be ruthless enough to attack 5 year olds with the intent of hurting them on practically any circumstances.

[Fluffy]

yeah, I'm ok with that. of 20 kids, only 8 or so can be attacking at any one time if I am standing in an open space, so there's a limit to how much effective force they can deliver. 5 year olds weigh about 40 pounds each, and don't have great balance or strength.

I recall my little sister grabbing my mom's chair and pulling it a couple of meters to grab his attention. My mom was sitting on it all the time.

[Phil]

(strategy guide against marauding 5 year olds)

 

Please nominate this for POTY please.

[neilkaz]

I'm the guy that said 10+ vs 5 year olds and I purposely left out a +. I think the real answer is 10++ or even 12++ or 15+ if it came down to a real FIGHT or life and death situation. I recall seeing a picture of Chris somewhere and he's a big guy and not an oldish man like me. If you put Chris in the Octogon with 20 5 years olds and the fight is real and with no morals, I'd bet on Chris being the only one who walks out of there and especially if he can wear a cup like UFC fighters to protect his groin somewhat.

 

Now if you put 20 5 years olds who are trained in Tai Kwon Do like my niece was at that age, even Chris might have some difficulties, but a random 20 of them from a kindergarden or 1st grade class...well these kids just aren't big enough or strong enough or knowledgable enough to do much damage unless they can strike you in the groin (and a cup mitigates much of that), or get you down and get at your eyes (not permitted in UFC).

 

Just what is a 5 year old going to do when hit full force by a grown man? He/she will tap out or quit if still conscious. Once again, my only concern would be not killing the kids and not to sound crude, make it a life or death situation and that doesn't become a concern.

 

Would I bet on my self vs 20 of them? Well I'll be 55 in a month, but have wrestled around enough with 4 or 5 nephews and my step son ranging form about 4 to 11 years old to know that I'd beat them in this. I'd not like to face 20 5 years olds in the Octogon, but as Chris said, I'd use the walls to my advantage and try to make sure I wasn't completely surrounded by them. Banging their heads together when several attacked would be a major weapon of mine. Elbows will also be a major weapon..ie smash down on their heads or backwards into their faces when they grab you.

 

There's huge difference in kids when they are 7 or 8 than 5. They know more about how to fight and how to take you down. I'd certainly NOT be happy fighting 10 8 year olds in a real fight.

 

Please don't think I'm nuts when talking about doing these things to little kids. This is the subject of this mini-thread and I am trying to be realistic. My appologies to anyone whom I've offended.

 

.. neilkaz ..