Takeout Doubles

[barsikb]

Reading TOD chapter in "25 Ways to Compete in the Bidding" (Barbara Seagram, Marc Smith).

 

1. Authors suggest using TOD with opening bid values including distribution. Is it really reasonable to do TOD without 12HCP very often? (not talking about balancing Dbl now)

 

2. I am used to responding by bidding 1NT with 6 HCP only (probably because I trust my doubling partner to have at least 12HCP). How bad is that?

They say 8-10. (with a stopper in opps' suit, of course)

 

3. Authors recommend jumping to game in response to partner's TOD with opening values and a 5-card major. What if partner had 6-card suit in another major, shortness in my major and was too strong to overcall (not much chance, I know)?

 

4. I am used to understand the second Dbl in this bidding sequence: 1♣ - Dbl - 1♥ - Dbl as showing 4-card ♠ suit (bidding ♠ now would show five of them) but this book says this double would show positive values and having ♥ (at least four of them). Really confused now.

 

Would appreciate your thoughts and comments :)

[Antrax]

The fourth issue is easy to understand: the first double promised some support for all three suits. If fourth hand has spades, he can just bid spades. There is no reason for fourth hand double to tell the original doubler "well, I can support some of the suits I know you can support". So, it makes sense for this double to be penalty-ish - "I have some hearts, and so should you". The main reason, I believe, is that otherwise it's very easy for third hand to bluff us out of our best suit, by bidding his shorter suit and then running away to 2♣ when doubled.

[helene_t]

6-9 is traditional and 8-10 more modern, reflecting a more aggressive doubling style.

Jumping to game with a 5-card suit is a bit crude. You can bit opps suit first to give partner the chance to show something unusual .

As for advancer's double, see Antrax post. But it is not only to unmask a psyche. It also can be helpful for partner to let him know we have some values. He might be able to bid 3nt with a stop in opener suit.

[han]

For what it is worth many good pairs play the double in 4 as takeout.

[fromageGB]

4. Perhaps your confusion is because in the similar sequence 1♥ X 2♥ X, this responsive double does not show hearts, but shows a better minor than spades, but can play in spades if partner wants. Over a minor bid and support, the responsive double would show both equal majors, typically 44xx.

 

However, I also play your given sequence as takeout, with equal liking for both suits. I would bid 1NT with hearts.

[Vampyr]

However, I also play your given sequence as takeout, with equal liking for both suits. I would bid 1NT with hearts.

 

How do you find a heart game if you have one?

[fromageGB]

How do you find a heart game if you have one?

An easy answer : I wouldn't. This is probably why the recommended methods have changed, if they have. However, 1NT/2NT shows good heart stops, and it is possible partner with good hearts in a good hand will bid 2♥/3♥ to suggest hearts as an alternative contract.

[helene_t]

I would bid 1NT with hearts.

Don't you need a club stopper for bidding nt?

[fromageGB]

Don't you need a club stopper for bidding nt?

I suppose this depends on your agreements. Our simple one is that a NT bid in competition shows stop(s) in the suit bid on your right, not the left. If you had KJxx of the suit on your left, a couple of leads through and it is no stop at all. KJxx of the suit on the right is much better.

 

In this particular sequence as partner is expected to be short in the opening suit and to have something himself in the suit on your right, there is a strong argument that our agreement should not apply, and that 1NT should show something of the suit on your left, not the right. But then, with everything on the wrong side for you, it is probably not a good bid. You are going to get a heart lead through partner, and clubs through you.

 

Sometimes partner doubles with something in opener's suit and can stand the NT, or raise, or just accepts that there is no fit in the other suits so passes as nowhere better to go.

[barsikb]

The fourth issue is easy to understand: the first double promised some support for all three suits. If fourth hand has spades, he can just bid spades. There is no reason for fourth hand double to tell the original doubler "well, I can support some of the suits I know you can support". So, it makes sense for this double to be penalty-ish - "I have some hearts, and so should you". The main reason, I believe, is that otherwise it's very easy for third hand to bluff us out of our best suit, by bidding his shorter suit and then running away to 2♣ when doubled.

 

I really like to show if there are four spades or five so was pretty comfortable with free-bidding five and doubling with four. I guess this is supposed to give me problem with other types of hands?

[barsikb]

6-9 is traditional and 8-10 more modern, reflecting a more aggressive doubling style.

Jumping to game with a 5-card suit is a bit crude. You can bit opps suit first to give partner the chance to show something unusual .

As for advancer's double, see Antrax post. But it is not only to unmask a psyche. It also can be helpful for partner to let him know we have some values. He might be able to bid 3nt with a stop in opener suit.

 

That is clear to me know re strength.

 

For advancer's double the way you to explained what are requirements then? About how many HCP, ♥?

[wyman]

I really like to show if there are four spades or five so was pretty comfortable with free-bidding five and doubling with four. I guess this is supposed to give me problem with other types of hands?

 

With a game going hand & only 3 spades, partner will cuebid next, so it's ok to bid the same (1s or 2s) with 4 or 5 spades here, unless you yourself have a game going hand.

 

The issue is when RHO sticks in a 1M bid on 3 small and you and your partner have a game in M. If you have 5 or a good 4, you can just bid 2M, and with any-old 4, you just dbl.

 

As the above responses suggest, though, different folks have different agreements about this. So this is a good discussion to have with p.

[fromageGB]

How do you find a heart game if you have one?

Let me pose a counter-question. How many times is 4♥ a sensible contract when you have an opening bid on your left, and a response on your right, giving you an expected maximum 23 count 4-4 fit with a 4-1 break against you? I think 1NT would win on a frequency basis.

[wyman]

Let me pose a counter-question. How many times is 4♥ a sensible contract when you have an opening bid on your left, and a response on your right, giving you an expected maximum 23 count 4-4 fit with a 4-1 break against you? I think 1NT would win on a frequency basis.

 

I understand this is N/B, but RHO will often take liberties here. If he sees partner open and RHO make a TOX, and he has very little, the benefit of bidding to keep our side out of a game (where all the HCP are marked btw) seems to outweigh the small chance that partner has the rest of the deck and goes ballistic.

[fromageGB]

I understand this is N/B, but RHO will often take liberties here. If he sees partner open and RHO make a TOX, and he has very little, the benefit of bidding to keep our side out of a game (where all the HCP are marked btw) seems to outweigh the small chance that partner has the rest of the deck and goes ballistic.

I never knew psyches like this were taught to beginners. That was the basis of my reply.

[Vampyr]

I never knew psyches like this were taught to beginners. That was the basis of my reply.

 

I don't think anyone is teaching psyches, just noting that they can happen. The opponents may not be beginners.

 

Some people play that the double may or may not contain RHO's major, and that either partner can subsequently bid the suit to show 4+. Perhaps this is simplest, as it keeps all options open, and after all, RHO's bid will usually be geniune (genuine includes 5 HCP and xxxx in the suit).

[Cyberyeti]

I understand this is N/B, but RHO will often take liberties here. If he sees partner open and RHO make a TOX, and he has very little, the benefit of bidding to keep our side out of a game (where all the HCP are marked btw) seems to outweigh the small chance that partner has the rest of the deck and goes ballistic.

This is exactly why many people (including me) play this double as penalties. xxx, xxxxx, xxx, xx 1♥-X-1♠ is worth a go. Quite a few people play X=4♠, 2♠=5+.

[PhilG007]

Reading TOD chapter in "25 Ways to Compete in the Bidding" (Barbara Seagram, Marc Smith).

 

1. Authors suggest using TOD with opening bid values including distribution. Is it really reasonable to do TOD without 12HCP very often? (not talking about balancing Dbl now)

 

2. I am used to responding by bidding 1NT with 6 HCP only (probably because I trust my doubling partner to have at least 12HCP). How bad is that?

They say 8-10. (with a stopper in opps' suit, of course)

 

3. Authors recommend jumping to game in response to partner's TOD with opening values and a 5-card major. What if partner had 6-card suit in another major, shortness in my major and was too strong to overcall (not much chance, I know)?

 

4. I am used to understand the second Dbl in this bidding sequence: 1♣ - Dbl - 1♥ - Dbl as showing 4-card ♠ suit (bidding ♠ now would show five of them) but this book says this double would show positive values and having ♥ (at least four of them). Really confused now.

 

Would appreciate your thoughts and comments :)

 

 

If you are ever stuck as to how to respond to partners takeout double try using the enemy suit to

pass the buck back to partner. Here is a example :-

 

W N E S

1D X NB ?

South holds

S.AQ82

H.K1052

D.82

C.AJ10

 

South should bid 2D with the above hand. The 2D bid says "I think it best if you chose the suit partner"

[wyman]

I never knew psyches like this were taught to beginners. That was the basis of my reply.

 

If you asked me what is standard for the auction (1C) X (1H) X, I would say that I think standard is "hearts" (though I wouldn't go so far as to say "penalties."

 

The only reason I brought up RHO's actions is because someone asked why this would be the standard meaning: basically, it's because we don't always want to trust opponents. As someone else noted, showing length in opps' suit can have other advantages, like allowing doubler to bid NT with a weak stopper.

 

I hardly think this is teaching beginners to psyche. Again, I'm just providing motivation for what I believe to be standard bidding (and again, I noted that different pairs play this dbl differently, so it's worth discussing with partner and choosing what you prefer / what makes sense to you).

[JLOGIC]

They might not even be psyching, we can still easily belong in hearts if RHO has 4 hearts.

[Zelandakh]

1. Authors suggest using TOD with opening bid values including distribution. Is it really reasonable to do TOD without 12HCP very often? (not talking about balancing Dbl now)

The traditional way of playing a take out double is effectively 13 points including 3 for a void in their suit, 2 for a singleton or 1 for a doubleton. That is, 10hcp with a void, 11hcp with a singleton or 12hcp with a doubleton. So yes, opening a TOD with less than 12 is fine with the right shape. Remember these are traditional numbers and many double with less than this, or with less optimal shapes these days too. However, 12 is not a magic number. There are many hands where you should be happy to pass with 12hcp, indeed even with 14hcp. There is a style of doubling where you double with these weak NT hand types but it is not a style I would recommend to N/B players. On the other hand, doubling with less than 12 and perfect shape is something I do recommend.

 

 

2. I am used to responding by bidding 1NT with 6 HCP only (probably because I trust my doubling partner to have at least 12HCP). How bad is that?

They say 8-10. (with a stopper in opps' suit, of course)

As Helene writes, 6-9 is traditional but some think a more constructive range is better. On the other hand, I have seen some very good players recommend responding 1NT to a TOD with considerably less than 6 in expert panel quizzes. Perhaps a reasonable compromise can be found with 7 to 10.

 

 

3. Authors recommend jumping to game in response to partner's TOD with opening values and a 5-card major. What if partner had 6-card suit in another major, shortness in my major and was too strong to overcall (not much chance, I know)?

I recommend bidding the opponents' suit (cue bid) with a hand that can force to game on power, as discussed on your previous TOD thread. Instead, you can use a direct jump to game to show a more distributional hand.

 

 

4. I am used to understand the second Dbl in this bidding sequence: 1♣ - Dbl - 1♥ - Dbl as showing 4-card ♠ suit (bidding ♠ now would show five of them) but this book says this double would show positive values and having ♥ (at least four of them). Really confused now.

Although you could play double as showing spades, I would personally recommend against it. Life is just easier if double shows hearts here. This is a general rule when we make a TOD and they bid one of the suits that is presumed to be held. There is more of a case for double to show hearts if they have bid spades but most have this double show spades (the suit bid) too, presumably for consistency more than for any theoretical merit.

[mycroft]

1. Opening values counting dummy points (distribution assuming we're playing partner's suit) has been recommended for many years. There are just too many hands you want to compete the partscore with that you'd have to pass if you don't have 12 high.

 

Note, I'd rather double with a 4=1=4=4 10 count than a 4=0=4=5 10 count; partner *will* pass occasionally, or bid NT...

 

If you only have 3 in a major, remember to downvalue shortness accordingly, especially 3244s.

 

2. When partner doubles, she has a shapely hand short in opener's suit. The last thing she wants to hear is NT by partner; all her distribution has now gone out the window. Even the 4=3 spade fit will play better with a heart "stopper" - say it's the Ace (to be nice); you're ruffing in the long hand, but you'll still manage to scramble two or three spade tricks as heart ruffs, whereas in NT, you may only be getting your high cards. And frequently we do find a fit, even with length in opener's suit.

 

So that's why you want more for a NT response. Sometimes you don't have a choice; but you *want* more.

 

3. and 4. I'll leave to the other posters; they've explained it quite well, I see. Having said that, there are enough people around here that play "extended responsive doubles" (1m-X-1M-X takeout) that I'm quite happy bidding my major with pretty much anything, raise available or not. I haven't quite gone to the outright psych (more than once...) I refuse to change this one to takeout, which does surprise my partners occasionally...

[SteveMoe]

Reading TOD chapter in "25 Ways to Compete in the Bidding" (Barbara Seagram, Marc Smith).

 

1. Authors suggest using TOD with opening bid values including distribution. Is it really reasonable to do TOD without 12HCP very often? (not talking about balancing Dbl now)

 

2. I am used to responding by bidding 1NT with 6 HCP only (probably because I trust my doubling partner to have at least 12HCP). How bad is that?

They say 8-10. (with a stopper in opps' suit, of course)

 

3. Authors recommend jumping to game in response to partner's TOD with opening values and a 5-card major. What if partner had 6-card suit in another major, shortness in my major and was too strong to overcall (not much chance, I know)?

 

4. I am used to understand the second Dbl in this bidding sequence: 1♣ - Dbl - 1♥ - Dbl as showing 4-card ♠ suit (bidding ♠ now would show five of them) but this book says this double would show positive values and having ♥ (at least four of them). Really confused now.

 

Would appreciate your thoughts and comments :)

1) At the 1-level, I like doubling with a good 10 HCP and perfect 4441 shape. For each additional card we add to THEIR suit, we need more strength. 4432 = 11/12, 4333 = 14. When I have values and do not have support for 3 suits I like overcalling in a 4-card major at the 1 level. The benefits for your defense cannot be over estimated. We have never lost points because of 4-card length. At the 2 level I need a Q more and at the 3 level I need an A more, and so on...

 

2) Responding 1NT to an OPENING bid by tpartner on 6 HCP is OK. When partner has made a takeout double, I prefer 1NT to show 8-11 HCP. With 6 or 7 HCP I will find a way to bid a suit. Sometimes we have to bid 1 of a major on 3-cards because we do not have values for 1NT, cannot bid a 4-card minor at the 2-level and we cannot pass for penalties. (I like 2N to show 12-14 HCP, and 3N to show 15-17 HCP).

 

3) Doubling then rebidding a new suit typically shows extras (17-19) and implies a 5-card suit. With 6=3=1=3 14+ many will overcall 1♠ over their 1♦ opening, intending to double ♦ at the next turn. This avoids complications when they jump in their suit. To avoid the complication that occurs when partner on a rare occasion has a bid hand and you and LHO both have opening bids, use a cue bid of their suit to express your intention and give partner a chance to show their hand. A cue bid followed by a new suit by you is GF. Keeping the bidding low allows strain exploration. (Usually when they open the bidding slam is out of the question).

 

4) Modern trend is to show both unbid suits, but this is a minority view. The meaning is I own RHO's Major and have a good hand. Not a command to penalize but a very descriptive bid that discourages RHo from psyching a major suit response in the hopes of confusing our side.

 

Let me offer this link fo an outline that you might find helpful - Takeout Doubles and Overcalls

 

One thing to think about competitive bidding - you should view how you use doubles, overcalls and 2-suit bids (e.g. Michaels, Unusual NT, Others) TOGETHER - it is very important to eliminate overlaps because they cause confusion.

[PhilKing]

The fact that one suggestion for avoiding responding 1NT on less than the "modern" 8-10 points is to bid a 3-card major demonstrates what appalling advice Smith/Seagram are giving.

 

Look at it this way: in a normal constructive sequence, we sometimes have to bid 1NT on 6 points because we are too strong to pass. Opposite a take-out double we have to respond with zero points, yet can't bid 1NT with fewer than eight! This high requirement for responding in no trumps when we have no suit to bid has no basis in logic. Playing in 3-3 fits is no fun for any player, but particularly novices.

[barsikb]

Thank you to all of the BBO experts for so much information and thoughts. Will take me time to study every post. I'll get back with more questions :) SteveMoe, thank you for the cincybridge.com So much to learn from there, too B-)