sfi Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Are you allowed to pause for this reason? Is this a variation in tempo that may work to the benefit of our side? It is certainly not unintentional. I don't think you can pause for this specific reason, but surely nobody who plays Kickback is going to do anything in tempo at this particular point of the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I don't think you can pause for this specific reason, but surely nobody who plays Kickback is going to do anything in tempo at this particular point of the auction. Some of them have insta-responded. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfi Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Some of them have insta-responded. :blink: Easy enough to say in a forum post, but at the table I would be astonished if there weren't a pause for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 8-3 would not bid 2♥ lol. I mean if I'm really trying to guess what happened, partner saw his hand wrong, like he had xx Qxx xxx KQJxx and then one of his spade x turned out to be the ace of clubs and he had x Qxx xxx AKQJxx, well not that exact hand because of 1♣ and 3♣ but you get the idea. I think the thing you're wrong about here s that partner would then bid 4S keycard. If this ever happened I think he would bid 4N. Edit: or he might bid 4C then 4S. Or whatever. I mean this is a nonsensical excersize anyways lol, but I think if he wanted to keycard 4S directly would be a poor choice. If he wanted to bid 4S natural somehow, doing it now would be his only option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I mean, he plays 4♠ as keycard so I think that's what he would bid! I agree this is a bit nonsensical. Thanks for the fun gwnn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Full hand+auction for people who can't wait: [hv=pc=n&s=s97haq7432d72cqjt&w=skj84hdaj98654c87&n=saq63hkjt9865dtc6&e=st52hdkq3cak95432&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1c1hd2h3c3hd4sppd5hppdrppp]399|300[/hv]+1000. We had no chance of getting doubled (and of them not pulling the penalty redouble) without the misunderstanding. Diamond honours other than the ace are just a reconstruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Full hand+auction for people who can't wait: [hv=pc=n&s=s97haq7432d72cqjt&w=skj84hdaj98654c87&n=saq63hkjt9865dtc6&e=st52hdkq3cak95432&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1c1hd2h3c3hd4sppd5hppdrppp]399|300[/hv]+1000. We had no chance of getting doubled (and of them not pulling the penalty redouble) without the misunderstanding. Diamond honours other than the ace are just a reconstruction. I couldn't get the hand diagram to open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I couldn't get the hand diagram to open Works for me - the Schizophrenic dog-walker explanation was correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Weird i can't read this post on android . Only the poll options Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 My hesitation after 4S should be expected. I needed time to pick myself up and get back in my chair. Of course, kickback DNE after this earlier auction; but, I am not passing. Problem I have is I don't know whether partner has actually discovered his unintentional mispull. If he had discovered it by the time 3H was doubled, he could have redoubled and then launched, but I don't believe I can do anything else but answer keycard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffford76 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 You're on thin ground here. It is the opposition who are supposed to pause. Even if they pass in a split second you should take no longer than your typical tempo. To do otherwise is giving UI. I don't think this is correct. I think you can agree with your partner to always "complete the pause". The skip bid waiting period is to avoid UI from both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I would like to know what my typical tempo should be for the given situation. And, if I exceed that and pass, or exceed that and bid ---what UI am I giving? It is AI when I pass that I think partner has spades; it is AI when I respond to Kickback that I have a certain number of keycards. The fact that I was confused and then chose would be AI to anyone at the table, for they would be confused as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 To me the most likely explanation is that partner wanted to bid 2S on the previous round and grabbed the wrong card, only to discover it a round later. I would certainly pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 To me the most likely explanation is that partner wanted to bid 2S on the previous round and grabbed the wrong card, only to discover it a round later. I would certainly pass. I agree with this. Your pd deserves to play in 4S. To answer the question as to how to bid the hand, I would respond "differently". Your pd makes a nf raise and then pulls Bwood? Does he play for money by chance? Can we arrange a game please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 I agree with this. Your pd deserves to play in 4S. To answer the question as to how to bid the hand, I would respond "differently". Your pd makes a nf raise and then pulls Bwood? Does he play for money by chance? Can we arrange a game please?You should hope he is on your side, since he just got you a +1000. Could you please explain why partner "deserves" to get a bad score just because you don't like how he bid his hand? I usually think people have to be rude or offensive to deserve negative outcomes, not simply play what I consider bad bridge. But if it was based on bad bridge, I would think the person who deserves to play a stupid contract is the one who passed his partner's keycard ask by their agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 To me the most likely explanation is that partner wanted to bid 2S on the previous round and grabbed the wrong card, only to discover it a round later. I would certainly pass.Presuming that 2♠ is weak, wouldn't it be much more clear of him to bid 3♠ then 4♠ if he insists on trying to run back to spades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 If 2S was weak then my explanation doesn't make any sense. In any case, I think we should assume that partner has made some kind of mistake and try to figure out what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 The bid cannot be KC. Explain to me how you can make a nf raise and then bid kc. It is not possible unless you are playing with a fool.How would he look if the bidding proceeded with 3 passes after the simple raise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 The bid cannot be KC. Explain to me how you can make a nf raise and then bid kc. It is not possible unless you are playing with a fool.How would he look if the bidding proceeded with 3 passes after the simple raise?Because he has so many hearts he knows it won;'t be passed out. Opps got what they deserved for W not bidding his suits, 6♦ by W is cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Interesting hand. My explanation stands. 2♥ was a deliberate bid. If partner took the 4♠ as kickback then nothing lost, it's not a bad hand for it. If he didn't, and opponents X, then you have the actual result as a fallback option. (But partner should have known it was kickback.) A good ploy. Or it may not be a ploy. We are told that they have this agreement. Maybe they have no others related to the advancing situation, and can't be sure whether 2NT or 2♣ would show support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 You're on thin ground here. It is the opposition who are supposed to pause. Even if they pass in a split second you should take no longer than your typical tempo. To do otherwise is giving UI.The last bid in the diagram was the jump bid, so I thought the suggested pauser was his LHO, not CHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 The last bid in the diagram was the jump bid, so I thought the suggested pauser was his LHO, not CHO.No, it was Gnasher way back on page one who mentioned the pause ---by CHO ---to allow for a substitution of an unintended 4S before it would be too late. Most of the rest of us believe that pause would happen for other reasons. However, as LHO, I would be pausing specifically to allow RHO to wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 The last bid in the diagram was the jump bid, so I thought the suggested pauser was his LHO, not CHO.You have raised an interesting point, here. We do not know whether it is we or the opponents who have bid 4♠. I took the hint from "your agreements say that 4S is keycard for hearts if hearts have been bid and raised" but, yes, it could be a deliberate red herring to put us off. Our agreements of course have nothing to do with why the opponents bid this way. Sorry I was so presumptuous. As the next bidder, I would indeed pass after a suitable pause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 If 2S was weak then my explanation doesn't make any sense. In any case, I think we should assume that partner has made some kind of mistake and try to figure out what it is.That is where I disagree. For one thing, you can't be sure he made a mistake. On the real hand he didn't. (I assume by "mistake" we mean accident, not bad bid.) Even if he did make a mistake we don't know which one. He could have seen his hand wrong, seen the auction wrong, pulled the wrong card, or thought the agreement was something else and then realized he was wrong. I think it's fruitless to try and figure out which one it was and further what he actually meant to do. That is an enormous parlay to try to get right. Then on top of all that, if he had made a mistake I doubt he would try to wriggle out of it by making the partnership's keycard bid! That's usually the one bid that least causes us to consider what he was up to since we have a prescribed response no matter what. I prefer to think of this (my idea of) sensibly. Partner has made our keycard bid by our agreements. It doesn't make sense in the auction, but neither does any other meaning. So I won't presume to know more about his hand than I do, I will just continue to follow our system and pray he knows what he is doing. This time he did in the sense that, whether we like it or not, his eyes were wide open to his chosen strategy. How cruel to then drop him in keycard because we suddenly decided we could read minds, or because like the hog we have a perverted sense of justice and a righteous mission to punish all bad bridge. I would go so far as to say that of all the times that I've ever disagreed with Justin on a subjective bridge matter, this is the most strongly that I can recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Calling it a bridge matter is a stretch :P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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