Three of the other major

[VixTD]

My partner and I are having difficulty with sequences that agree partner's major after no trump openers and either Stayman or transfer sequences. She likes 4NT in the following auctions to be RKCB, whereas I find it difficult to understand how they can be anything other than a quantitative no trump raise:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 4NT

 

and

 

1NT - 2♦

2♥ - 4NT

 

In each case if I wanted to agree hearts and show slam interest I would make a four-level cue bid and then bid an unambiguous RKCB. Similar principles apply over a 2NT opening, only there there is less room for cue-bidding, and new suits at the four level will show a second suit.

 

I have heard of people using a bid of three of the other major as an artificial slam try agreeing partner's major, but I can't find a written account of it anywhere. Does anyone know how it works? Would it apply in all these sequences? What consequences would it have for other bids?

 

E.g. presumably cue-bidding sequences could be introduced by this artifical other major, and direct jumps to the four level could be splinters. Responding hands that are 5-5 in the majors will have to be shown some other way than a transfer and a new suit (via Stayman?).

 

Can anyone help?

[aguahombre]

3 of the other major as slammish after Stayman and a 2M response dates back to Hardy, Walsh, Lawrence and others more than 30 years ago.

 

4NT as quantitative after a 2M response dates even further back.

 

Other major after 2NT and Stayman 3M response works too, subject to discussion of course.

 

We really don't like extending the idea to transfers.

[lmilne]

You are correct that 4NT should be quantitative, as there as no other (simple) way to bid that hand.

 

Your suggestion that you would make a 4-level cuebid is OK, except that most people would play these as splinters. This leaves the problem of what to do with a balanced hand with a fit.

 

The first suggestion (probably the simplest) is to play, as you suggested, 3 of the other major as agreeing the first bid major and showing slam interest. Opener can cue-bid or bid a naturalish 3NT (or use 3NT for whatever other meaning you would normally use it for in major-suit slam try auctions: waiting, some sort of replacement cue-bid, or serious/non-serious showing opener's range).

 

The only problem with this is that you lose your spade splinter in support of hearts.

 

The other structure that quite a few pairs play is called Baze after it's inventor. You can probably google various versions of it, but essentially: 3-other-major shows a splinter somewhere, and opener bids the next step to ask where, after which responder shows shortages up the line; 4♣ shows a quantitative raise of the major, usually balanced, simply invitational to slam; and 4♦ is RKCB for the major. You can also use this structure after transfers (and the other structures I've suggested mostly work as well).

 

With 5-5 in the majors, there's no problem if you have bid Stayman and partner has bid a major, as you can just raise that major without showing the other one. In my partnership, I have resolved this issue by playing transfer extensions after transfers, so 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♦ shows 5-5 and GF, while 1NT-2♦-2♥-3♥ shows 5-5 and invitational.

[kevperk]

Do you play Texas transfers? Then Texas followed by 4NT is RKCB.

[kevperk]

Do you play Texas transfers? Then Texas followed by 4NT is RKCB. This way Jacoby, followed by 4NT can still be quantitative, and other jumps splinters.

 

And after Stayman and a major responses, 4C can be keycard Gerber, and 4D a balanced raise(a 4NT bid with a fit), with 4NT still quantitative. 3 of the other major can show a slam interested hand with shortness somewhere.

[aguahombre]

Do you play Texas transfers? Then Texas followed by 4NT is RKCB.

Yes, it is; but I can't remember using it (maybe once or twice). The likelihood that I will have a hand with 1st/2nd round control everywhere and merely need to know keycards when partner has the strong NT is slim. Even slimmer if she opens 2NT. The Meckwell "answer bid" would seem more frequent.

[gwnn]

There was something smart with um

 

3oM=shortness (step asks)

4C=keycard

4D=balanced slam try with a fit

4NT=balanced slam try without a fit

 

You are not giving up anything, except perhaps fit jumps (or an improved version of the above which I remember exists but can't remember).

[manudude03]

Over a 2H response to stayman, I like to play 3C as 2-way (either clubs+spades or a balanced slam try in hearts). That allows you to keep all splinters at the cost of extra memory space. If it's a 2S response, then you can just play 3H as the balanced slam try. As for transfers, I just stick to the normal texas+4N is keycard. You could play that 1N-2x-2y-5z shows a key card response.

[BillPatch]

deleted

[Cyberyeti]

If you're going to play in hearts, use 4♠ as Blackwood in these auctions and 4N as quantitative.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

For the Stayman auctions you could use the Baze structure:

1NT - 2C

2M - ??

......... 3oM = fit, splinter somewhere ( next step asks where )

........... 4C = fit, RKC Gerber

........... 4D = fit, no splinter, slam invite

 

.......... 3m = no fit, 4oM/5+minor

......... 4NT = no fit, Quantitative

[TWO4BRIDGE]

For the Transfer auctions, if Responder wants to bid RKC after a transfer ( implying a long Major ), he should make a Texas Transfer first.

[ EDIT: I see kevperk said this already ] .

 

For other transfer auctions, Zel and Hog and myself ( and others ) have posted sequences.

After a simple transfer, new suits at the 3-level, 3m ( by Responder ) show a "good" 4+ card suit, slammish . Now Opener can either :

 

a) agree Major, no minor fit

b) agree minor, no Major

c) agree BOTH, double-fit

Edited February 20, 2013 by TWO4BRIDGE

[kevperk]

Do you play Texas transfers? Then Texas followed by 4NT is RKCB.

 

 

Yes, it is; but I can't remember using it (maybe once or twice). The likelihood that I will have a hand with 1st/2nd round control everywhere and merely need to know keycards when partner has the strong NT is slim. Even slimmer if she opens 2NT. The Meckwell "answer bid" would seem more frequent.

 

Just bringing up that the disagreement with OP and partner about the 4NT followup bid can be solved by go through Jacoby or Texas. Not that have RKCB is that valuable after a transfer.

[lowerline]

My partner and I have having difficulty with sequences that agree partner's major after no trump openers and either Stayman or transfer sequences. She likes 4NT in the following auctions to be RKCB, whereas I find it difficult to understand how they can be anything other than a quantitative no trump raise:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 4NT

 

and

 

1NT - 2♦

2♥ - 4NT

 

In each case if I wanted to agree hearts and show slam interest I would make a four-level cue bid and then bid an unambiguous RKCB. Similar principles apply over a 2NT opening, only there there is less room for cue-bidding, and new suits at the four level will show a second suit.

 

I have heard of people using a bid of three of the other major as an artificial slam try agreeing partner's major, but I can't find a written account of it anywhere. Does anyone know how it works? Would it apply in all these sequences? What consequences would it have for other bids?

 

E.g. presumably cue-bidding sequences could be introduced by this artifical other major, and direct jumps to the four level could be splinters. Responding hands that are 5-5 in the majors will have to be shown some other way than a transfer and a new suit (via Stayman?).

 

Can anyone help?

 

lmilne & gwnn & TWO4BRIDGE already mentioned Baze after Stayman. I think that is what you need here.

After Jacoby tranfers I think it is a good idea to play Splinters. Then you have to use Texas transfers with 6322 or 7222 distributions. 4nt after Texas is always RKCB (as others already said).

 

Steven

[gwnn]

How come when three people post the same thing in the thread, it's always the last one who gets credit for it (yes I was the second one :) )?

[Zelandakh]

Can anyone help?

One easy solution involves the use of second round transfers. What I was playing when I used normal Stayman was:

 

1NT - 2♣; 2♥

==

2♠ = Baron range ask (find 4-4 minor fit or a NT invite)

2NT = clubs

3♣ = diamonds

3♦ = GF heart raise

3♥ = INV heart raise

3♠, 4m = splinter

--

 

1NT - 2♣; 2♠

==

2NT = nat invite

3♣ = diamonds

3♦ = Baron (find 4-4 minor fit, ♥=♣, ♠=♦)

3♥ = GF spade raise

3♠ = INV spade raise

4♣♦♥ = splinter

--

 

A bid to show clubs here is unnecessary since those hands are bid via a diferent route (2♠ response). If you need this then you need to drop the 3♦ Baron rebid.

 

For transfers, it depends whether you have an alternative way of showing a major one-suiter with slam interest, such as a direct 3M response. My current structure does not and is a continuation of the transfer idea:

 

1NT - 2♦; 2♥

==

2♠ = range ask (nat NT bid; or clubs; or slammy one-suiter)

... - 2NT = min, <3 hearts (now 3♣ = 4 clubs; 3♦ = 5 clubs; 3♥ = one-suiter)

... - 3♣ = max, <3 hearts (now 3♦ = clubs; 3♥ = one-suiter)

... - 3♦ = max, 3+ hearts

... - 3♥ = min, 3+ hearts

2NT = 4 spades, invite (if you include this hand type in Stayman then you could use this to show clubs)

3♣ = diamonds

3♦ = 5+ spades

3♥ = invite

3♠, 4m = spinter

--

 

1NT - 2♥; 2♠

==

2NT = nat

3♣ = diamonds; or spade one-suiter

... - 3♦ = 4+ diamonds, <3 spades (now 3♠ = one-suiter)

... - 3♥ = no fit (now 3♠ = one-suiter)

... - 3♠ = spade fit, 2-3 diamonds

... - others = 3+ spades, 4+ diamonds

3♦ = clubs

3♥ = 5+ hearts, invite

3♠ = invite

4♣♦♥ = splinter

--

 

Obviously, it is simpler just to play 1NT - 3M as natural and slammy. Then you do not need to include the hand type into the Jacoby transfer sequences. Even so, the second round transfers work nicely, particularly when our major is hearts.

[GHS_K_Chow]

1NT - 2♦; 2♥

3♦ = 5+ spades

 

1NT - 2♥; 2♠

3♥ = 5+ hearts, invite

 

Random thought, is it really necessary to have 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ = 5-5 invite?

You already have the sequence before 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ as an artificial bid showing 5-5. You can simply play that as invite+ and haev an extra bid in spades.

 

*Edit: And for those who like to "right-side" contracts, 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ will end on the declarer deciding the contract and playing it.

[Zelandakh]

Random thought, is it really necessary to have 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ = 5-5 invite?

You already have the sequence before 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ as an artificial bid showing 5-5. You can simply play that as invite+ and haev an extra bid in spades.

The problem with this is that Opener has to jump about with a maximum. The whole point of including this sequence is to allow the major to be agreed at the 3 level and initiate a slam auction. It is better to make the bid weak or GF than INV+, although that does mean that Opener cannot bid 3NT with 2-2 majors. When I tried that though, I found it practically never came up and was not a real improvement on the alternative ways of handling such a weak hand. So I take the small advantage conferred by leaving it as GF.

[GHS_K_Chow]

The problem with this is that Opener has to jump about with a maximum. The whole point of including this sequence is to allow the major to be agreed at the 3 level and initiate a slam auction. It is better to make the bid weak or GF than INV+, although that does mean that Opener cannot bid 3NT with 2-2 majors. When I tried that though, I found it practically never came up and was not a real improvement on the alternative ways of handling such a weak hand. So I take the small advantage conferred by leaving it as GF.

 

Out of curiosity, any thought to putting the 6 card heart invite into 2S and/or swapping the meanings of 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♥ and 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ - something - 3♥?

[Zelandakh]

Out of curiosity, any thought to putting the 6 card heart invite into 2S and/or swapping the meanings of 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♥ and 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ - something - 3♥?

I have not really considered this, for two reasons. The first is that the way it is now, any bid above 2NT is a game force (OK, aside from 3[hearts over 2♠), which reduces the chance of something going horribly wrong. The other is simply familiarity - everyone and her dog plays 3♥ as an invite here and I tried to minimise the changes from my "old standard" when I implemented the new structure. Prior to this I play the simple 1NT - 3M as natural and slammy and so the transfer-raise was obviously invitational.

 

To be honest, I am not sure I can see any advantage in inverting these 2 sequences either. If they want to double 2♠ or something similar and we hold the one-suited slam hand, I am confident that the information they are giving away is going to be more useful to us in the play than any disruption they cause to the auction. It is not like 4th hand could not have acted directly over 2♦ with a preempt.

[VixTD]

I'm grateful for all the replies, but most of them (especially the ones you call "easy solutions") won't work because my partner doesn't do "science" at bridge. I thought if I could use an otherwise useless bid to agree partner's suit but keep everything else more or less standard I might have a chance, and three-of-the-other-major might just fit this after Stayman.

 

I agree that splinters are useful as second round bids in these sequences, but hands with no shortage are more common, and if we use a jump bid on the second round as a splinter we need a way to make a forcing bid on those hands.

 

Here are my ideas so far:

 

After 1NT - Stayman - 2M: use 3oM as GF agreement, new suit as natural (F), jump bids in new suits as splinters.

 

After 1NT - transfer - 2 agreed M: use new suit as natural, jump in new suit as splinter, raise to three of the major as natural and GF*.

 

*I got this last idea from Paul Hackett, who said that this is not very useful as an invitational bid - you should just decide and pass or bid game if you're borderline. (He was giving a seminar on teams play, so we may be undoing ourselves by adopting this in the pairs game.)

 

After 2NT - Stayman - 3M: use 3(or4)oM as GF agreement, new suits as splinters.

 

After 2NT - transfer - 3 agreed M: the only solution I can think of involves making lots of otherwise natural-looking bids forcing to 4NT or 5M, which my partner won't cope with.

 

I agree that Texas transfers would solve a lot of problems where responder wants to play in that suit regardless of partner's holding. I might just manage to get that one on the card.

 

Thanks again.

[aguahombre]

Regardless, what I observe is someone who posts/asks a question because he wants answers from which he can choose. That is a good thing, and not always the case on BBF.

[Zelandakh]

After 2NT - transfer - 3 agreed M: the only solution I can think of involves making lots of otherwise natural-looking bids forcing to 4NT or 5M, which my partner won't cope with.

This one actually works just the way you want it to. After 2NT - 3♥; 3♠, you can play 4m as natural (second suit) and 4♥ as a slam try in spades. You do lose the cue bids but you did not have those anyway if you were playing 4m as natural. 4♥ to show hearts is not needed since with 5-5 majors you would transfer to hearts first.

 

Speaking of which, to make this also work for hearts you need to add some sort of science to handle the 5-5 major hand mentioned above. The one way is transfers, as mentioned in my first "simple" post. Another option is to play a Texas-style extension where 2NT - 4♣ simply shows 5-5 majors. This not only handles the hand type but also has the key advantage of stopping partner from ever being able to use Gerber. If you do this then 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠ can be used as a slam try in hearts.

 

The above assumes that you are playing simple Stayman (not Puppet) and can therefore handle all of the 5-4 major hands that way.

[PhilKing]

Out of curiosity, any thought to putting the 6 card heart invite into 2S and/or swapping the meanings of 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♥ and 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ - something - 3♥?

 

Yep. It's pretty standard in some English circles to play the Two Spade then Three Heart sequence to show the invitational six-card suit (transfer and raise forcing, hoverver Fido does it).

 

There is an obvious reason from an information leakage POV to do it this way: over Two Spades opener just jumps to 4♥ with any max with three hearts without any faffing. This way responder does not have to tip their shape before the lead. If 2♠ could conceal a slam try, you could not do this.

[Zelandakh]

Phil, that does not work in my structure because of the club transfer component. Responder can have a slammy hand even if they do not have the one-suiter. I assume "Fido" do not play second round transfers here, or if they do then they are able to use the 2NT rebid for clubs.