Do you open with 22 bidding rule?

[lycier]

A hand ：

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sqj2hqt985dkj2cqj]133|100[/hv]

 

 

 

B hand ：

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sqj987ha32da32c86]133|100[/hv]

 

As for opening problem,I wonder whether everybody make a final decision based on 22 bidding rule ,if you obey it,you don't open in the two hand,do you agree this prospoal? why?

[ahydra]

What is the "22 bidding rule"? I've heard of Rule of 20 (sometimes 19), which people use to open - if your points + two longest suits come to 20 then you should open. On that you would open A but not B. I would open A with a weak NT but B would depend on how I'm feeling at the time - likely pass.

 

ahydra

 

Edit: I'd also really like to learn what "Let the human equality to cognize the world" means :)

[Zelandakh]

Edit: I'd also really like to learn what "Let the human equality to cognize the world" means :)

A quick google shows this to be the slogan for Baidu Encyclopedia, some kind of Chinese wiki. It sounds to me like a typical Asian translation though. All your base are belong to us.

[Vampyr]

What is the "22 bidding rule"? I've heard of Rule of 20 (sometimes 19), which people use to open - if your points + two longest suits come to 20 then you should open. On that you would open A but not B. I would open A with a weak NT but B would depend on how I'm feeling at the time - likely pass.

 

Maybe you add your points and your three longest suits? Maybe there is a rule of 24 too -- add your HCP to the number of cards in your hand.

[gwnn]

lmgtfy.

 

http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/Rule22.html

 

I would pass on the first one usually because it's inordinately ugly (fortunately I never get dealt these hands in real life) and open the second one because it has spades and two aces.

[Cyberyeti]

I'd open a weak no trump on both in first, second or 4th seats, I'd pass the first in 3rd, opening 1♠ on the second.

[billw55]

What is the "22 bidding rule"? I've heard of Rule of 20 (sometimes 19), which people use to open - if your points + two longest suits come to 20 then you should open.

Apparently the rule of 22 is the same thing. Although, I cannot even construct a hand that would meet this criteria and fail to open. A 5-4 13 count, 5-5 or 6-4 12 count, 6-5 11 count? This "rule" sounds way too conservative to me.

 

In general, I don't use such metrics to make bidding decisions. I count my high card points and apply my judgement. Rules of 20 or 19 or whatever are reserved for self-defense during post mortem :lol:

[gordontd]

lmgtfy.

 

http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/Rule22.html

 

 

It says:

The bridge player, who decides to open light, counts the length of the two LONGEST SUITS and adds that total to the number of high card points.

 

If the combined result is 22 or more, then the player should open the hand.

LOL - they think opening a 5-5 12-count is opening light!

[gwnn]

I think you cut the quote short. What they say is (rephrased):

-with 22+: always open (i.e. all 4-4 or 5332 12 counts)

-with 20-21: only open if you have two defensive tricks

-with 19-: never open

 

I have heard it sometimes referred as 'rule of 22' as in HCP+longest suits+defensive tricks should be >=22.

[gordontd]

I think you cut the quote short. What they say is (rephrased):

-with 22+: always open (i.e. all 4-4 or 5332 12 counts)

-with 20-21: only open if you have two defensive tricks

-with 19-: never open

 

I have heard it sometimes referred as 'rule of 22' as in HCP+longest suits+defensive tricks should be >=22.

Hmm, if that's what they're saying, they're saying to open all 4-4 14-counts (not 12 counts, which only add up to 20). I don't think even Roth needed to be told that!

[ahydra]

-with 22+: always open (i.e. all 4-4 or 5332 12 counts)

 

But 12 + 4 + 4 = 20, not 22?

 

ahydra

 

edit: sorry, crosspost with gordontd

[billw55]

I think you cut the quote short. What they say is (rephrased):

-with 22+: always open (i.e. all 4-4 or 5332 12 counts)

-with 20-21: only open if you have two defensive tricks

-with 19-: never open

 

I have heard it sometimes referred as 'rule of 22' as in HCP+longest suits+defensive tricks should be >=22.

Whatever it is, my point stands: an algorithm is not a substitute for judgement.

[gwnn]

Hmm, if that's what they're saying, they're saying to open all 4-4 14-counts (not 12 counts, which only add up to 20). I don't think even Roth needed to be told that!

yes, sorry, I misplaced the parantheses :)

[kenberg]

lmgtfy.

 

http://www.bridgeguy...ons/Rule22.html

 

I would pass on the first one usually because it's inordinately ugly (fortunately I never get dealt these hands in real life) and open the second one because it has spades and two aces.

 

OK, from this link the Rule of 22 is a variant on the Rule of 20. Neither of which do I regard as gospel. If I have a hand with 5-5 and ten highs, most of the highs in the two suits, I probably open it. I want to see the hand before I commit, but probably I open it and it has nothing to do with a memorized rule. It would not occur to me to apply such a rule with hands of the posted shape.

 

I also pass the first and (probably) open the second, pretty much for the reasons you state. Counting QJ tight as 3 points doesn't appeal to me, a trump suit that begins QJ9 is better than one that begins QT9, it is more likely that I want the QJ9 suit led if my lho opponent is ultimately the declarer, and spades are better than hearts.

[Phil]

These hands are a great illustration why the "Rule of 20" (and other assorted 'rules') are flawed.

 

I would pass 1 and open 2.

 

(Its mildly curious that 2 is a 25 point ZAR 1♠ opener, and 1 has 24 and is a pass)

[Wayne_LV]

What is the "22 bidding rule"? I've heard of Rule of 20 (sometimes 19), which people use to open - if your points + two longest suits come to 20 then you should open. On that you would open A but not B. I would open A with a weak NT but B would depend on how I'm feeling at the time - likely pass.

 

ahydra

 

Edit: I'd also really like to learn what "Let the human equality to cognize the world" means :)

 

The rule of 22 is basically the rule of 20 + quick tricks, i.e. if hcp + combined length of 2 longest suits + quick tricks = 22, then open. This is somewhat redundant since the rule of 20 also requires 2 Quick Tricks and specifies that the playing strength be concentrated in the 2 longest suits.

[Zelandakh]

(Its mildly curious that 2 is a 25 point ZAR 1♠ opener, and 1 has 24 and is a pass)

Hand B is 26 ZP isn't it? 11 + 4 + 10 + 3 - 2.

[Wayne_LV]

A hand ：

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sqj2hqt985dkj2cqj]133|100[/hv]

 

 

 

B hand ：

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sqj987ha32da32c86]133|100[/hv]

 

As for opening problem,I wonder whether everybody make a final decision based on 22 bidding rule ,if you obey it,you don't open in the two hand,do you agree this prospoal? why?

 

Hand A I would pass ... it contains a bad 12 count, less if you deduct for no Aces and has dubious defensive values. It definitely does not qualify for the application of rule of 20 since the hcp are NOT concentrated in the 2 longest suits.

 

Hand B I would open in the 3 seat based on 11 hcp, 12 total points and 2 Quick Tricks, I would open it in 4 seat based on rule of 15 (hcp+ # of spades). I would pass in seats 1 or 2. This hand also does not qualify for the application of the rule of 20, again the hcp are not concentrated in the 2 longest suits. I expect many would open this 11 hcp hand in any seat, but to my taste, it is too weak to open with an unpassed partner. If partner opens, then the hand may well revalue to game going. If partner fails to open the bidding then you are in a pretty good defensive position.

 

The rule of 20 should, IMHO, only be applied to true 2-suited hands.

[Phil]

Hand B is 26 ZP isn't it? 11 + 4 + 10 + 3 - 2.

 

Yes, can't add.

[lowerline]

A hand ：

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sqj2hqt985dkj2cqj]133|100[/hv]

 

 

 

B hand ：

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sqj987ha32da32c86]133|100[/hv]

 

As for opening problem,I wonder whether everybody make a final decision based on 22 bidding rule ,if you obey it,you don't open in the two hand,do you agree this prospoal? why?

 

Hand A is a clear pass. Unless in 3th or 4th position and playing some form of Drury.

Hand B is borderline. The 2 aces and the intermediates in spades draw me towards a 1♠ opening.

 

Is rule of 22 = rule of 20 + QTs? That rule will tell you hand B is better than hand A, but does not allow you to open any of them.

 

Steven

[Codo]

I would open both.

 

Hand 1 is crap, but it still has a 5 card major and 12 HCPS, so a no brainer to open it in any given system.

Hand 2 is an easy opener too, nice suit, two aces, what do I need more?

[Mbodell]

I would open the first in most circumstances and the second in some. If I was playing weak NT I'd open 1nt. If playing strong NT in a 2/1 system I'm open 1M and pass a 1nt response (regardless of if our agreement is forcing or semi-forcing).

[phil_20686]

I think they are both normal openers. Would be closer to passing the second than the first. Think the T987 in the heart suit are very valuable in the first hand. Also, having your J's with other honours means they are not as undervalued as they would be with other honour structure. I think that this hand one is really quite a respectable wk nt. I Feel the two hands are pretty close. If you played in NT you would definitely prefer the top one to the second, though obviously the top one is horrible in a suit.

[rmnka447]

The rule of 20 popularized by Marty Bergen was simply the total of the two longest suits and HCP. Then some experts, after seeing how blatantly some people applied the rule, started advocating a rule of 22 which did include QTs along with long suits and HCP.

 

A couple years ago, Mike Lawrence published a series of articles in the ACBL Bulletin on this very subject.

 

Funny, but virtually all the examples Bergen uses in his books (Points Schmoints series, Marty Sez series) that he says meet the rule of 20 also meet the rule of 22 with one exception ♠ - ♥ 6 ♦ KJ109652 ♣ AJ1097.

 

Furthermore, Bergen also points out that opening ♠ K ♥ QJ ♦ Q5432 ♣ Q5432 which meets the rule of 20 is ridiculous. He also states that he would never pass ♠ AQ1098 ♥ A1098 ♦ 1098 ♣ 10 which fails it.

 

While Bergen never explicitly endorses a rule of 22, he does later state that "It may be out of fashion to count quick tricks, but you can't play good bridge without doing so".

 

I think Bergen likes a little more flexibility than a hard and fast QT rule, but still uses them as part of the decision making process.

 

P.S. The Lawrence articles were in the August 2009-October 2009 issues in the new player section.

[rmnka447]

Just for the record, Hand 1 is never an opening bid for me.

 

Hand 2 depends.

 

With my aggressive bidding style partner, it would be a clear opener no matter what seat.

 

With more conventional partners, I might pass in 1st or 2nd seat, but would open in 3rd or 4th seat. Depending on the partner, the 3rd seat opener might be either 1 ♠ or 2 ♠.