Response to TOD

[barsikb]

What shall I bid after partner's TOD? Cuebid? Jump in Hearts?

 

Dealer: West Vul: None

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa82hakt9dj865cq2&w=sk9hj76dkq73cajt9&n=sqj64hq532datck53&e=st753h84d942c8764]399|300[/hv]

[Zelandakh]

I would start with a cue (2♦).

[barsikb]

Thank you, Zelandakh,

 

so 2D - Pass - 2H - Pass - 4H?

 

Does cuebid promise at least one 4-card Major?

[gwnn]

yes, 2♦-p-2♥-p-4♥ seems good. No, the cuebid doesn't promise a 4-card major necessarily, but all non-GF hands will have at least one. So I would guess that it will have one about 95% of the time. Anyway, doubler just bids up the line, unless he is 16+.

 

It is a good idea to know how strong 2♦ is, and in particular, whether sequences as

 

1♦-x-p-2♦

p-2♥/2♠

 

can be passed by the 2♦ bidder. In the US usually people play that (in the sequence above) 2♥ and 2♠ are forcing, while in Europe people usually play it as NF (I live in Europe and I prefer to play it as forcing, so my life is full of suffering).

[barsikb]

gwnn "so my life is full of suffering" ;)

 

2D showing opening strength and almost 100% GF, isn't it?

[gwnn]

Not in Europe it's not! The most accurate description I could give you is something like (of course will not apply to every European pair, or even to the majority of them, but it's the closest I can come to something that many people play):

 

"8+ with 4-4 majors or 10-11 with one 4-card major or GF any"

 

In the US the popular method is described as "2♦ is forcing until suit agreement" so

 

1♦-x-p-2♦

p-2♥-p-3♥ is NF, but for example

 

1♦-x-p-2♦

p-2♥-p-2♠ is F.

 

In Europe it could best be described as "2♦ is forcing but after this everything that can be NF is NF". But usually the European style works better for partscore deals, which tend to be quite numerous, so it's not a bad style at all. And playing many NF bids is more intuitive.

[barsikb]

Thank you for detailed and clear explanation, gwnn

 

So, it's not all suffering B-)

 

What about jumping in a suit in response to partner's TOD with 4+ -card suit Vs 5+ - card suit?

[gwnn]

This one is unanimous, just about everyone plays it as 4+. If you have 5, you just take that into account and jump about a queen lighter.

 

Important Europe vs US difference, however: what is 3M?

 

Europe: 3M shows about 10 points and a 5-card suit.

US: 3M shows about 5 points and a 6-card suit (like a weak 2).

 

So in Europe you can bid any of 1M, 2M, 3M and 4M with a 5-card major (although 1M and 2M do not per se show a 5-card suit).

[Zelandakh]

I do not think "forcing to suit agreement" is so uncommon in Europe either. That is how I learned it and it is certainly how Marc Smith suggested it be played in the English Bridge Magazine. There is a simpler way to play though, and this is what I recommend to N/B players, as well as most intermediates. Cue bid a minor with a hand that wants to GF on power or on an invitational hand with both majors. Cue bid a major only with a GF hand. After a minor cue, Doubler assumes the invitational hand and bids accordingly. Advancer raises a 2M bid with the invitational hand or bids anything else with a GF. If Doubler rebids 2NT then pass and 3M are the invitational hand type. It is true that you will sometimes play in a 4-3 major fit with a 4-4 fit available. Nonetheless, the simplicity and the gains on GF auctions make up for this. I think only A/E players should add the extra hand types here.

 

And yes, your auction (2♥ - 4♥) looks fine. As for a double jump advance, I think this is better played in what gwnn describes as the American style. After a single jump, you can use the cue bid to differentiate between 4 and 5 card support and you often want to stay a level lower, even opposite 5 cards.

[helene_t]

[what about jumping to 2♥?]

This one is unanimous, just about everyone plays it as 4+. If you have 5, you just take that into account and jump about a queen lighter.

I don't think it is quite unanimous, there are some Dutch top pairs that play it as showing 5, or at least as strongly showing 5. In that style, with a 4-card suit you just bid at the 1-level with a modest 9-count and cue with a good 9-count.

 

But OK now I am confusing the thread with some non-standard ideas.

[gwnn]

I do not think "forcing to suit agreement" is so uncommon in Europe either. That is how I learned it and it is certainly how Marc Smith suggested it be played in the English Bridge Magazine. There is a simpler way to play though, and this is what I recommend to N/B players, as well as most intermediates. Cue bid a minor with a hand that wants to GF on power or on an invitational hand with both majors. Cue bid a major only with a GF hand. After a minor cue, Doubler assumes the invitational hand and bids accordingly. Advancer raises a 2M bid with the invitational hand or bids anything else with a GF. If Doubler rebids 2NT then pass and 3M are the invitational hand type. It is true that you will sometimes play in a 4-3 major fit with a 4-4 fit available. Nonetheless, the simplicity and the gains on GF auctions make up for this. I think only A/E players should add the extra hand types here.

What's the difference between this 'simpler way' and 'forcing to suit agreement'?

[Zelandakh]

The main difference is that (1♦) - X - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ is game forcing, since you would have raised hearts with the invitational hand. FtSA allows you to cue with an invitational hand and 4 spades but not 4 hearts; therefore 2♠ here is ambiguous about strength in that method (as I understand it).

[gwnn]

OK thanks (I wasn't being argumentative, just wanted to understand).

 

To helene_t: I always wanted to try simple jumps=5 cards, I think that means that you bid 1M with 0-10 and make doubler raise with all hands with 4-card support. I have seen my (Dutch) partner bid 1M with as much as 13 (!), maybe it's common to play something like that here?

[helene_t]

I have seen my (Dutch) partner bid 1M with as much as 13 (!), maybe it's common to play something like that here?

No.

 

Beginners are taught to jump with 8+. Some advanced players increase it to 9+ or maybe even 10+ (since they double quite aggresively, and doubler doesn't need much to raise with 4-card support) but more than that is likely to be a brain fart or beginner's mistake. You would still expect double to pass with a random 14-count and 3-card support.

[barsikb]

Zelandakh: "After a single jump, you can use the cue bid to differentiate between 4 and 5 card support and you often want to stay a level lower, even opposite 5 cards."

 

Can you give me an example please?

 

PS. Sorry, how does "Quote" button work here?

[barsikb]

helene_t: "there are some Dutch top pairs that play it as showing 5"

 

I am in a good company ;) Really like all the bids that show exact number of cards in Major suits.

[Zelandakh]

After (1♦) - X - 2♥, you can agree that Doubler's 3♦ rebid is invitational or better with 3 hearts (or some strong hand that is otherwise difficult to show naturally). This is ok because Doubler can make a direct raise with 4 hearts, bid a new suit with the hand too strong for an overcall, or bid NT with the hand too strong for a 1NT overcall. The only generally awkward hand type without 3 hearts is a 4 card raise too strong for a direct 4♥ raise but this hand is rare and also has no problem being lumped in with the 3 card raises.

 

To quote a single post, click the Reply button directly underneath the post. To quote several posts at once, click the MultiQuote button underneath every post you want to quote and then click on the Add Reply button ate the very bottom of the thread (next to Start New Topic).

[barsikb]

After (1♦) - X - 2♥, you can agree that Doubler's 3♦ rebid is invitational or better with 3 hearts (or some strong hand that is otherwise difficult to show naturally). This is ok because Doubler can make a direct raise with 4 hearts, bid a new suit with the hand too strong for an overcall, or bid NT with the hand too strong for a 1NT overcall. The only generally awkward hand type without 3 hearts is a 4 card raise too strong for a direct 4♥ raise but this hand is rare and also has no problem being lumped in with the 3 card raises.

 

To quote a single post, click the Reply button directly underneath the post. To quote several posts at once, click the MultiQuote button underneath every post you want to quote and then click on the Add Reply button ate the very bottom of the thread (next to Start New Topic).

 

Thank you for your patience and very clear answer, Zelandakh :)

[han]

As Helene says, some Dutch pairs play that a jump to 2H shows 5. I do too.

[lalldonn]

So does Joe Grue. But I'm personally not convinced.

[PhilKing]

It is possible to play jumps as promising five-card suits and about 8-10 without having to respond at the one-level with monsters - play the cue bid as f1 9+, just asking partner to bid 4-card suits up the line.

 

With a minimum double (up to 14), just bid the lowest suit. With 15+ do something stronger. Over a simple suit, responders change of suit or raise is also NF. For example, 1♣-x-pass-2♣-pass-2♥-pass-2♠ shows four spades and is non-forcing.

 

Both players have to jump again or cue to set up a game force.

[Vampyr]

It is possible to play jumps as promising five-card suits and about 8-10 without having to respond at the one-level with monsters - play the cue bid as f1 9+, just asking partner to bid 4-card suits up the line.

 

Is this a good agreement?

[PhilKing]

Is this a good agreement?

 

It's what I do - so obviously yes. :blink:

 

It's a little trickier after 1M-x, but it's still fine. In my view, you get much more in the way of natural defined auctions. Making strong hands cue again is no hardship.

[lalldonn]

It's a little risky to not show anything with 9 or 10 and a four card suit, but you have some gains too when it's the last thing you make. It also makes it easier to make aggressive doubles. But I have no experience with the Phil suggestion. It seems like a gain when the double has 16 or 17 without great support and would have just passed the simple response.

[barsikb]

As Helene says, some Dutch pairs play that a jump to 2H shows 5. I do too.

 

What do you respond with 8-9-10-11 points and a 4-card suit (especially Major)?