Minor suit slam try after puppet

[fromageGB]

Lets say you play a version of puppet over 2NT that allows you to look for a major fit, and when none is found, lets you bid 4♣ or 4♦ as a slam try. (An example for most puppets would be 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 3♠ 3NT 4♦.) If this is a natural slam try, what is the sensible way to continue?

 

Opener is limited to a range of 2 hcp, so it cannot be asking him to make a strength decision. Is he expected to show or deny a fit with responder's 5 card suit, say with 4NT denying a fit, and cueing an Ace with a fit? What constitutes a fit, does it have to be 4 card, or 3 card including a top honour, or any 3 card? Is he supposed to accept with no potentially wasted quacks (QJs) but bid 4NT otherwise?

 

Perhaps it is better to play 4m as minorwood, directly asking for aces regardless, to cater for the stronger responder hands with, say, a {4x}{6x} shape ?

 

Can you manage both a slam try or ace asking, depending on which hand responder has, after reaching 3NT?

 

I would welcome your thoughts as to what constitutes a minor slam try - which most agree is an important bid - and how you like to play the continuations.

[Zelandakh]

I think you can play a version of conditional RKCB here, only that the condition is related to having support or not rather than being good/bad for slam. So

 

...4♦

==

4♥ = denies support

4♠ = support, 1 or 4

4NT = support, 0 or 3

5♣ = support, 2 or 5 w/o

5♦ = support, 2 or 5 with

 

Over 4♥, 4♠ can now show extra length in diamonds.

 

When the minor is clubs, things are a little harder since diamonds is often still a possible strain. It is possible to play the same structure of course (adding 4♦ natural) but now there is a risk of getting too high if Opener has 2 key cards with the ♣Q.

 

An alternative would be for 4♥ to be bid both without support and with support but a bad hand for slam. I am not so sure about that though, since it is often enough for Responder to know about the fit in order to take the push.

 

I think the standard advances are for 4NT to be negative and other bids (apart from 4♦) to be cues showing a fit. One thing that is relevant here is whether you play any form of Baron in the NT structure. If you do then it might be possible to rule out hands with one or both 4 card minors. That leaves the 4m bid showing specifically a decent 5 card suit without 4 of the other minor. Now you can play the same structure over 4♣ as over 4♦ a step lower and avoid the risk of getting a 5♦ response (since you no longer need 4♦ as natural).

[fromageGB]

Thanks, Zel, and how many cards in the minor would opener have to show "support"?

[Zelandakh]

As I was suggesting in the final paragraph, this might depend on other parts of the system. If you bid 44xy hands this way then you would need 4 card support. But some pairs handle these hands using some form of Baron and in that case (or if you just choose to ignore the 4 card minors) bidding the minor promises 5, so support is now only 3+. Although they do happen ocasionally, I do not think looking for 7 card fit minor suit slams is generally a good idea.

[Phil]

In one of my partnerships, we've decided that 4m here is the same as 2N-3♠-3N-4m. In the latter, 4m is a natural slam try and opener responds key cards if he likes the minor, but otherwise 4N is regressive.

[Zelandakh]

Phil, I realise this is just a restatement of the conditional RKCB idea but I am a strong believer that it is better to play the first step as regressive and for the other steps to be positive and key cards. That provides space for a key card ask if Responder does not care about Opener's opinion. For me, the real question is here is whether regressive just means hands without fit or also includes bad hands (for slam) with fit.

[fromageGB]

This was one of my thoughts too. Responder is likely to be a 4 card major and 5 or 6 minor, so you as opener can expect him to have just one or two cards in any side suit (possibly your 4 card major) where you have say QJxx. Your sound 20 count now becomes a dodgy 17. Partner will be slam seeking on a 30 count if you have support, so rates to be about 10 hcp for the slam try. A total 27, even with fit, does not look good odds for 12 tricks.

 

This tells me that an initial denial may be best, regardless of 3 card support. If partner is stronger, he can still ask for aces.

 

Perhaps support should be 3 cards and mainly well positioned values (eg Aces, Kings, but quacks only in the minor or partner's presumed major) or a solid source of tricks.

[fromageGB]

When the minor is clubs, things are a little harder since diamonds is often still a possible strain.

For me that is no problem because with both minors I use minor suit stayman 3♠ rather than start with 3♣. So I agree, identical over a 4♣ minor, with a 4♦ denial and then a 4♥ ace ask regardless.

[steve2005]

Crowhurst, Eric: Precision Bidding in Acol in Book

has a system they call Modified Baron, but is a form of puppet Stayman

where 4♣(can have ♦)/4♦ are slam tries looking for 4-4 minor fit

[Zelandakh]

For me that is no problem because with both minors I use minor suit stayman 3♠ rather than start with 3♣. So I agree, identical over a 4♣ minor, with a 4♦ denial and then a 4♥ ace ask regardless.

Yeah, this is the point really. What these bids show is to some extent dependant on the rest of the system. If you bid Hand X a different way, then you do need to be able to show it after a 3♣ response.

 

Presumably this means you also bid 5-4 minor hands via a 3♠ response. So, cross-posting with the other current Puppet thread, I am interested in how you use the sequence 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 4M.

[fromageGB]

Presumably this means you also bid 5-4 minor hands via a 3♠ response. So, cross-posting with the other current Puppet thread, I am interested in how you use the sequence 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 4M.

Yes, we use 3♠ for xx{4+5} hands. Now we are adding minor slam tries into the system, where after 2NT 3♣ 3♦, 4♣/4♦ may be 5 card slam inquiries or 6 card "going ace asking regardless" hands, we have no agreed use for 4♥/4♠. Previously without the minor slam tries we used the 4♦/4♥ as kickback for minor suits, with 4♠ empty.

 

I see from your September puppet post that you use these to show 4/5 and 5/4 minor hands with slam interest, and something like this is a possibility, but I am happy with the 3♠ method for both minor hands. If opener denies a 4 card minor by bidding 3NT, responder can still make a cooperative ace ask in a 5 card minor. If responder has a 55 minor hand, after 2NT 3♠ 3NT we use 4NT as "pick a minor", but with no room for ace/king asking ability. Possibly there would be a good use to have your 4♥/4♠after puppet bids as being slam invitations showing singletons. We are playing an immediate 2NT 4M as the same, but showing voids.

 

By the way, we can play 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 4♣/♦ as slam tries (without going through 3♥), because with our version of puppet the 54xx hand is handled a different way, and if we have a slam going 44 major hand, opener will always be the one to bid the major, so we can simply ace ask.

[Zelandakh]

I do not have the same options as you with 5-4 minor hands because my 3♠ shows clubs (one-suited or both minors), hence the need to include them elsewhere. I like this anyway because it is not so unusual for (31)(45) to want to play in a major fit. I also have an immediate 4♣ response available for single-suited diamond hands so this takes care of the "going ace asking" hand type. Your idea about splitting up the 5-5 minor hands would work but my suggestion would to to reverse this. It is better to bid the (30)55 hands via Puppet then the (21)55 hands because it might uncover a 5-3 major suit fit along the way, which would in turn be a bigger help for slam evaluation than finding a 5-2 fit. You also get the potential useful inference that 2NT - 3♣; 3M - 4♦; 4NT - 5♣ is a slam try with a void in Opener's major. That allows Opener to evaluate extremely effectively. Obviously, if you use 4♦ as a cue here then you need an alternative bid to show this hand; perhaps 4NT would fit the bill, with a RKCB hand being forced to cue first. It does not really matter how you organise it, just that it is logical within your system so that you and your partner do not forget!

[han]

I know the OP didn't ask for this but I think that if the auction starts

 

2NT - 3C

3S - ..

 

then you should play that 4C is a slam try in spades.

 

I play that 4D shows clubs and 4H shows diamonds.

[han]

I know the OP didn't ask for this but I think that if the auction starts

 

2NT - 3C

3S - ..

 

then you maybe you should play that 4C is a slam try in spades.

 

I play that 4D shows clubs and 4H shows diamonds.

[fromageGB]

Your idea about splitting up the 5-5 minor hands would work but my suggestion would to to reverse this. It is better to bid the (30)55 hands via Puppet then the (21)55 hands because it might uncover a 5-3 major suit fit along the way, which would in turn be a bigger help for slam evaluation than finding a 5-2 fit. You also get the potential useful inference that 2NT - 3♣; 3M - 4♦; 4NT - 5♣ is a slam try with a void in Opener's major. That allows Opener to evaluate extremely effectively.

Excellent suggestions, Zel, thank you very much. You have a remarkable and enviable ability to put yourself into a poster's methods and extrapolate from them to find enhancements, even if those methods may be ones you yourself would not touch with a bargepole.

[ArtK78]

A suggestion for those who use key-card responses to the minor suit slam try:

 

Since the "weak" hand is asking the "strong" hand for key-cards, you should play 0314 responses. The zero and one responses will be exceedingly rare, and the "2" responses are handled with the third and fourth step responses. However, given that 3 key cards in opener's hand is more likely than 4 key cards, you will be one step lower in the bidding most of the time, and, if the response is two-steps for 4 key-cards, you will be better able to deal with the loss of bidding space.

 

Kantar recommends this approach anytime that the "weak" hand is asking the "strong" hand for key-cards.

[han]

Does it matter? I don't see how it matters when we are asking for keycards by bidding 4m. I also don't now of any pair that plays this Kantar suff.

[ArtK78]

Does it matter? I don't see how it matters when we are asking for keycards by bidding 4m. I also don't now of any pair that plays this Kantar suff.

Sure it matters. It may give you some additional bidding space.

 

That is the whole reason for playing 1430 in the first place. If you don't think it matters, then don't play 1430.

[fromageGB]

Yes, it gives you additional bidding space, but as you are playing kickback, it does not matter at all if (like me) you just ask for aces, the queen if necessary, and kings. It is only if you need the room for some other level of ask that it makes a difference.

 

While you are a step lower with the 4m ace ask, you do in fact lose a step compared with normal kickback when opener makes the next step denial of support and you continue ace asking anyway with your 6 card suit, but it is not really a problem as you will normally be happy to subside in 5NT rather than 5m.

 

In fact there is no difference between 0314 and 1430 when you have 3 aces, because the first two steps of reply are perfectly safe. It is the higher steps that may be problematic, and if 2 aces are insufficient for that level, then you should play a different method. I have never wanted to ace ask without an ace myself, so I don't use RKCB replies.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I think Zel's method ( post # 2 ) is simple ( easy on the little gray cells ) and effective .

 

Here is a hand from another message board ( couple of years ago ) asking how to reach the grand:

 

West............East

A Q x x........K x

A Q x x........K 9 x

x.................A J x x

J 9 x x.........A K Q x

 

- - .... 2NT

3C! ( Puppet/Muppet )

.... - 3H! ( no 4 or 5M ; 3NT would show 5 cards ♥ )

4C ( natural )

.... - ??

....... 4D = no fit

....... 4H = fit, 0/3 ( or 4S if you prefer )

....... 4S = fit, 1/4 ( or 4H )

.......4NT = fit, 2 - ♣Q

....... 5C = fit, 2 + ♣Q

 

After:

.... - 4H ( or 4S ) = 0/3

4S ( or 4NT ) = ♣Q-ask

.... - 5H ( ♣Q + ♥K )

5S ( 2nd specific K-ask )

.... - 5NT ( ♠ K )

7C

counting: ♠AKQ, ♥AKQ, ♦A, 4 clubs, 2-♦ ruffs

[fromageGB]

counting: ♠AKQ, ♥AKQ, ♦A, 4 clubs, 2-♦ ruffs

A perfect opener. Isn't it nice when the only cards you want in partner's hand are aces and kings? Never happens to me.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

A perfect opener. Isn't it nice when the only cards you want in partner's hand are aces and kings? Never happens to me.

But the "low-level ' telling ' " still lets you stop with either no-fit or a slight shortage of primes.

[han]

Sure it matters. It may give you some additional bidding space.

 

That is the whole reason for playing 1430 in the first place. If you don't think it matters, then don't play 1430.

 

The main reason for playing 1430 (besides that the whole world plays it so and that it is a common bridge score and therefore easier to remember) occurs when hearts is trump. Then you don't have room to ask for the trump queen after a 5D response. When spades is trump it doesn't matter so much, and the same is true when you are using kickback or ask for keycards by bidding 4m.

[aguahombre]

The main reason for playing 1430 (besides that the whole world plays it so and that it is a common bridge score and therefore easier to remember) occurs when hearts is trump. Then you don't have room to ask for the trump queen after a 5D response. When spades is trump it doesn't matter so much, and the same is true when you are using kickback or ask for keycards by bidding 4m.

It seems that the "main reason" requires both of the following in order to be advantageous:

 

1) hearts are trump

2) 4N is asking, not 4S

 

Responder is more likely to have one key than zero in the cases where extra room is neccessary.

 

But, as Art pointed out, when the weak hand is asking, the frequency of 3 keys vs. 4 is the significant factor and optimal would be 0314 unless forgetting is a concern.

[fromageGB]

But, as Art pointed out, when the weak hand is asking, the frequency of 3 keys vs. 4 is the significant factor and optimal would be 0314 unless forgetting is a concern.

I don't see how it matters what method you use in the context Art was talking out, using what is effectively minorwood : "A suggestion for those who use key-card responses to the minor suit slam try". IF you want to stop in 5m, if 4♦ is followed by a 4♥ denial (the worst case) and then 4♠ asks regardless, a reply of 2 steps, 5♣ still allows a Q ask of 5♦. No Q = pass, Q = bid the cheapest K.

 

So what difference 3014 or 4103?

 

In practice, after a missing ace, with partner having a doubleton in the suit and a 2NT open, you would agree that the sign-off will be 5NT rather 5♦. So 5♦ = Q ask, no Q = 5NT, Q = bid the cheapest K.