Weak 1NT with 5CM?

[Cowology]

If I am playing 2/1 GF with Weak NT what would be the advantages/disadvantages to including balanced hands containing a 5CM and would you recomend doing so?

[the hog]

Argued this many times - balanced hands should be treated as balanced hands. The Italians have been doing this for years and if you analyze their results, as Paul Marston has, you will find their their results are fine using this style.

[Free]

Include ANY 5332 in your NT openings, but make sure you can find the 5 card (easy using puppet stayman or something, a little more complicated but also possible using advanced structures like Keri).

[whereagles]

Indeed. I had prejudices against opening 1NT with 5-card majors and now I do it on a regular basis, regardless of 1NT being strong, weak or mini-nt, and without a shadow of remorse <_<

[pbleighton]

Do it, but not with decent hands at the top of whatever range you are using. OTOH, if you are playing 12-14, for example, upgrade strong 11 counts. For me, this usually means a decent 5 card suit, including 5m422s.

 

Peter

[luke warm]

i can't even remember the last time i opened 1M with a 5332 hand that was within whatever nt range i was using at the time.... and i have a nice puppet stayman sequence, which i think is a must... the disadvantage is, you'll play some part scores in 1nt rather than 2M, which could hurt vs. the field

 

the advantages are, you'll play some part scores in 1nt vs. 2M (<_<)... you have a built in preempt, you describe your hand to pard in one bid (more or less)

[MickyB]

At MPs I'll rarely open a weak NT with 5 spades, too likely to be missing our best part-score. If you hold hearts then you have an extra way to win by keeping the opps out of their spade contract, and if you are playing IMPs +90 against the par of +110 is only an imp out. Give me hearts when playing IMPs, and I'll open 1NT every time.

[hrothgar]

If I am playing 2/1 GF with Weak NT what would be the advantages/disadvantages to including balanced hands containing a 5CM and would you recomend doing so?

I'm also in favor of treating 5M332 like other balanced hand patterns and I'm glad that MOSCITO has recently adopted this.

 

The rational is quite simple: "Special cases" increase the complexity of the system.

[mikestar]

I have played this both ways and prefer ot open 1N with a five card major>

 

This is almost always better when partenr doesn't fit your major, and will; be OK when he fits your major and is strong enough to invite or force.

 

It tends to lose when partner has a fit but has to pass 1N.

 

It is necessary to have a structure which can find the 5-3 fits when partner is unbalanced. Missing the 5-3 fit when responder is 4-4-3-2 is OK and missing it when responder is 4-3-3-3 is often a good thing.

 

The worst situation is with 5 moderate spades in a weak NT--this might be a slight loser considered in isolation. But removing the 5332's from your major openings has some real advatages.

[Cascade]

and i have a nice puppet stayman sequence, which i think is a must...

What style Puppet Stayman (or alternatives) are used to find 5-3 major fits?

 

I have no real preference for opening 1NT or not with a five-card major but I think that if you do it is essential that you can find your 5-3 fit.

 

I have never played a Puppet Stayman over 1NT so consequently whatever range I have not open 1NT with a five-card major.

 

I did see a study somewhere that suggested the weaker the NT the less advantage you have to opening 1NT with a five-card major.

 

This sounds and feels right to me. The weaker your hand the more likely you do not have a game and therefore the more likely that you will need to play the correct part-score. Weak NTs is already poor at finding the right part-score. There are of course compensating advantages in that it also makes it difficult for your opponents to find their correct part-score (and sometimes even game). It is moot whether this is a nett advantage or disadvantage.

 

On the other hand with a stronger hand you are more likely to have a game and when you go to game you have the room to find your 5-3 fit. So the above advantages and disadvantages are both less frequent while at the same time adding definition to your auctions that start 1Maj.

 

Anyway I am interested in versions of Puppet Stayman or alternatives that I can graft on to my weak NT structure that will still allow me to escape from 1NT sensibly and will fit in with other parts of my NT structure that I would like to keep.

[hrothgar]

and i have a nice puppet stayman sequence, which i think is a must...

What style Puppet Stayman (or alternatives) are used to find 5-3 major fits?

 

I have no real preference for opening 1NT or not with a five-card major but I think that if you do it is essential that you can find your 5-3 fit.

 

I have never played a Puppet Stayman over 1NT so consequently whatever range I have not open 1NT with a five-card major.

 

I did see a study somewhere that suggested the weaker the NT the less advantage you have to opening 1NT with a five-card major.

 

This sounds and feels right to me. The weaker your hand the more likely you do not have a game and therefore the more likely that you will need to play the correct part-score. Weak NTs is already poor at finding the right part-score. There are of course compensating advantages in that it also makes it difficult for your opponents to find their correct part-score (and sometimes even game). It is moot whether this is a nett advantage or disadvantage.

 

On the other hand with a stronger hand you are more likely to have a game and when you go to game you have the room to find your 5-3 fit. So the above advantages and disadvantages are both less frequent while at the same time adding definition to your auctions that start 1Maj.

 

Anyway I am interested in versions of Puppet Stayman or alternatives that I can graft on to my weak NT structure that will still allow me to escape from 1NT sensibly and will fit in with other parts of my NT structure that I would like to keep.

Extended Keri...

[Free]

and i have a nice puppet stayman sequence, which i think is a must...

What style Puppet Stayman (or alternatives) are used to find 5-3 major fits?

 

I have no real preference for opening 1NT or not with a five-card major but I think that if you do it is essential that you can find your 5-3 fit.

The easiest way to find any 5-3 fit imo is a combination of several things:

 

- transfers

- Smolen

- something with a GF 5-3M hand: I normally use 2NT as transfer ♦ or GF 5-3M (rebid your short M after opener's response). Opener responds as it's transfer ♦.

[luke warm]

Anyway I am interested in versions of Puppet Stayman or alternatives that I can graft on to my weak NT structure that will still allow me to escape from 1NT sensibly and will fit in with other parts of my NT structure that I would like to keep.

i play 2 way stayman.. 2c is invitational puppet/garbage, 2d is a game force... 2c is only bid on hands of invitational strength OR hands that will pass whatever opener rebids... after 1nt/2c, opener bids a 5M directly else 2d

 

after 1nt/2c/2d:

2h=<4 hearts, *might* have 4 spades - this is used to bid invitational 2nt (1nt/2c/2d/2h/2s/2nt)

2s=guarantees 4 hearts, denies 4 spades

2nt=4/4 majors

3c=5 spades, 4 hearts

3d=5 hearts, 4 spades

3h=31(45)

3s=13(45)

 

1nt/2nt is relay to 3c, pass or correct preemptive

 

1nt/3c,d,h,s are invitational

 

on the 1nt/2c/2d hands, it's important for opener to show he'd accept, if that's the case.. for example, 1nt/2c/2d/2h(may have 4 spades, denies 4 hearts)/3s with 4.. or 1nt/2c/2d/2s/3nt for example

[pclayton]

Keri (old or new) is good for fishing out the 5CM.

 

If you don't want the brain damage, just play 1N - 3♣ as puppet. Works very well - it shows the hands that just want to play game, and preempts the 2 level lead director by 4th hand. 1N - 2♣ is either garbage, invitational, or slammish.

[Cowology]

Thank you for all of your replies, they have been very helpfull. I've of course always opened my 15-17 NT with a 5 card H suit (and occasional S suit) and never felt the need for Puppet Stay, but for some reason I have just never included 5CM with my Wk NT. I will definately look into Keri and balance that against Puppet and the other methods described here and discuss with my partner to discover what we will be most comfortable with. Thanks again.

[Double !]

This is a very interesting discussion since the only bidding sequence of concern (given that you don't have a moth-eaten 5-card major) is 1H-1S-1NT. If playing weak NT, then the purpose for including 5 card majors might be to imply some balance to the hand and to keep 1NT rebids consistent (15-17 or whatever). It might make responder's task with a 5-card major easier. But is that really necessary? Is rebidding a 3-card minor by opener with extra values to be followed by 2NT if necessary such a bad thing? Using the proposed response structures (Keri, etc.) are all nice assuming that the opps shut up and give you a chance to clarify. IMO, this approach loses when you don't quickly find your 8-card major fit and start to guess in competitive situations. There are 4 people sitting at the table, and you might be going anti-field when responder has to pass your 1NT opener and the fit is lost. Also, having a 5-card suit that might set up might result in underbidding when the 5-card suit can be set up and run, increasing trick-taking potential. Just a matter of style.........I could be missing something (besides me marbles).

[luke warm]

i personally think this anti-field thing is a little overrated... maybe not *much*, but a little... at this time i have no choice but to open 12-15 5333 with 1nt... that's because any other bid promises a different shape... however, even before this system i'd open 5333 10-13 or 12-14 with 1nt... my (relatively limited) experience has taught me that i come out ahead way more often than not

 

i'm not in the least afraid of a double, and i'm only slightly more afraid of missing a major suit fit

[the hog]

I agree Jimmy. Often, even with a 5-3 fit the NT contract plays better than the suit contract. There are even occasions, (granted these are much more of a rara avis), when the 5-4 M suit fit is the winner.

 

Using the four handed argument - it is significantly more difficult to overcall 1N with 2S rather than bid 1S over 1H. (Many players will bid 1S with a good 4 carder.) I have found the pre emptive effect of the 1NT opening together with the systemic implications of treating balanced hands as balanced hands to be a huge plus in the long term. The other plus is that I don't need to bid fictitious suits.

[kgr]

I don't play weak NT, but would think that including 5cM would make the bidding easier:

1H-1S-1NT

The 1NT rebid now shows 15-17, if you don't include 5cM then it would show 12-17.

[Cowology]

After some difficulty I managed to find some information online regarding Keri (Link), but I could not find anything on "extended Keri". Would anybody happen to have a link to some source material, be able to point me in the right direction or even just explain it here if it's not to much trouble. <_<

[WrecksVee]

I don't play weak NT, but would think that including 5cM would make the bidding easier:

1H-1S-1NT

The 1NT rebid now shows 15-17, if you don't include 5cM then it would show 12-17.

Current players of Kaplan-Sheinwold (KS is a system based on weak NT and five card majors) around please correct me, but my memory is that 1♥-1♠-1NT showed less HCP; all other 1x-1y-1NT showed 15-17. In the major suit sequence with 15-17 balanced Opener rebid a three card major. This followed suit over suit principles used in KS and was forcing. See the Bridge World site for a detailed summary to get ideas on this solution.

 

Currently I have a partnership that plays a "weaker" NT, good 12 to 16, which commonly includes five card majors. Following the KS lead of catchy two letter system nicknames we call it MU, Mostly Unbalanced. This referes to the fact that unless Opener has 17-20 HCP he never opens a balanced hand with one of a suit. Note we are playing sounder opening bid standards that are not to everyones' taste.

 

We use by the book Keri. Certainly you will miss some major fits but in general Keri locates most such fits when you are in game going and some invitational situations. But as we play in US and even on BBO our NT range is anti field in any case. Note that we compound the problem using a wide range for 1NT. We gain on some hands with preemptive effect and poorer defense after 1NT-3NT. We have found that being sure Opener is unbalanced has advantages when we open yet end up on defense.

 

Our 1NT rebid is ususally 17-18 and 2NT 19-20. We play that after 1♠-1NT(forcing) that Opener rebids 2NT(17-18) and 3NT(19-20) so that a minor rebid is never a three card suit. Over 1♥ we play Kaplan Interchange (1♠=forcing NT, 5-12 HCP with 0 to 4 ♠; 1NT=5+♠ or 4+♠ with 13+HCP). Our 1NT rebid after 1♥-1♠-1NT is conventional showing 4+♠ in a hand not worth a reverse to 2♠. Opener rebids 2NT (17-18) and 3NT(19-20) as described above. This convention lets us not rebid three card minors after opening 1♥ and also solves the forcing NT problem distribution 4=5=2=2.

[NickToll]

... I have found the pre emptive effect of the 1NT opening together with the systemic implications of treating balanced hands as balanced hands to be a huge plus in the long term. The other plus is that I don't need to bid fictitious suits.

100% agree. In this scenario, it seems to me that a combination of Kaplan Inversion (1♠ as a forcing notrump, 1NT as a 5-card spade response) and Gazzilli 2♣ (opener's rebid, including both weak hands with ♥+♣ and 15-17 hands) could improve constructive bidding. This way:

 

weak hands with five hearts and four spades can easily be solved via 1♥ - 1♠ (forcing notrump) - 1NT (majors, too weak for a reverse);

 

balanced hands can be described with two different routes: 18-19 can be shown with 1♥ - 1♠ - 2NT, while 15-17 go through 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ (Gazzilli) - 2♦ (interested) - 2NT; should partner be very weak, the sequence could be 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥, and opener could choose to pass (similar sequences with other kinds of distribution, except 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ showing a minimum with clubs);

 

Gazzilli 2♣ can also be used on 1♥ - 1NT (spades), or 1♠ - 1NT (usual forcing notrump);

 

bidding a 3card minor is not necessary anymore, whatever the strength; this is, maybe, the most important point.

[Gerben47]

@ Double!

 

This is why I play 1NT with 5-card HEARTS only with a special responses to Stayman

1NT - 2♣ - 2NT = 5-card ♥

 

The same is true for strong notrumps BTW.