ArtK78 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 You really do see things negatively, don't you? This hand has fitting honours in three suits, honours in the long suits, a source of tricks, an easy rebid, and pretty good defence. What exactly are you missing for an opening bid?Values? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfi Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Values? You do realise it's a chunky 6-4 with 11 points and good intermediates? If I gave you the DJ to make a full 12 count, would that make so much difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 You do realise it's a chunky 6-4 with 11 points and good intermediates? If I gave you the DJ to make a full 12 count, would that make so much difference?11 points? You can't seriously be counting the ♥Q? If I replaced the ♥Q with the ♥2, would you still open the hand 1♠? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Can't think of doing anything except opening 1♠, what am I missing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfi Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 11 points? You can't seriously be counting the ♥Q? If I replaced the ♥Q with the ♥2, would you still open the hand 1♠? At the risk of asking an obvious question, you do realise that assets increase in value as well as decrease? The HQ isn't worthless. A priori maybe it's half its nominal value - maybe a bit less but probably not more. However, if you're counting the spades as 5 points you're underestimating their worth by at least a point, probably more like 1.5 points. Similarly, the KJ87 is worth rather more than 4 points - the 87 alone rate to be half a point on the average hand and the J is probably 1.5 points. If you're counting points, that adds up to about 12 plus whatever distributional values you want to throw in. And yes, I think that opening this hand without the HQ is normal. Opening 2S stretches the range of that enough to make it very hard for partner to judge what to do, and passing that hand is just losing bridge. With the HQ it's a clear opener, and worth further action on many sequences. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 This discussion is pointless, and some of the arguments being made border on silly. You are not going to convince me to open this hand with a one bid, and I am not going to convince you to open it with a two bid in second seat. So let's leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 1 ♠ because I have an opening bid. 4 ♠ may work from time to time, but why should I thorw a bomb if I do not need to? 2 ♠ is for senior citizens who like to have "full values" for their bids- for me this hand is much too strong for a weak two bid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 2 ♠ is for senior citizens who like to have "full values" for their bids- for me this hand is much too strong for a weak two bid...I will respond to this post as soon as I find my scooter and my cane. Is it a crime to have "full values" for one's bids? Or does every bid have to be subminimum? What strikes me as funny is that everyone expects partner to have full values for their bids, but their own bids, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 What happened to "Leave it at that." in your previous post? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I will "leave it at that" when others do likewise. While I am old enough for the ACBL senior pairs (although I have never played in the event), I don't yet consider myself a "senior citizen." I am not yet on social security, nor am I retired. Nor do I appreciate it when my choice of opening is disparaged (or is it complimented) by attributing it to "senior citizens who like to have 'full values' for their bids." I assumed it was a disparaging remark since the poster then stated that it was not his choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Just for the record Senior Citizens who like to have full values for their opening bids are no different from Citizens of any age who like to have full values...or my spouse, who is a senior alien. Many of us senior citizens took no offense, because we believe the given hand fits our definition of full values --- the values expected by the guy across the table who matters. I wouldn't dream of trying to convince anyone that their requirements of a 1-bid vs. a 2-bid vs a pass are wrong. I don't mind expressing what I think is the difference between the choices, and why. You don't agree with that assessment. Next case, we might agree; and that should worry you. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Full values for an opening bid are what you and your partner have agreed them to be. That would be different for a Fantunes pair than for a pair playing Moscito. Where there is perhaps some disagreement within that is in hands that have lots of potential but are perhaps not so good if we are defending or find a misfit. I think this hand is just too good to pass up in the modern game. You have 11 points and a 6421 with good honour structures in the 2 long suits. Sure you want to downgrade the ♥Q by at least a point but the hand is still good enough, at least for me. And I am happy to expect such a hand from partner too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 To the people who pass, what are you going to do over 1♥-P-3/4♥ ? This is a decision I don't want to take which is a large part of the reason I open 1♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbrayek Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'll open 1♠ even though there's no ♥Q :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbrayek Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'll open 1♠ even though there's no ♥Q :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 This discussion is pointless, and some of the arguments being made border on silly. You are not going to convince me to open this hand with a one bid, and I am not going to convince you to open it with a two bid in second seat. So let's leave it at that. I don't think preemptig is wrong with this hand, not my personal choice, but it is close. But for me a 6-4 is closer to a 7-3 than to a 6-3. I normally adjust 6-4s between 2 and 3 level for suit qualities, ODR and vulnerabilities; this hand has decent suit qualities and big ODR due to honnors on long suits. So if preempting I would always do it at the 3 level unless unfavourable, 2♠ looks like heavy underbid at favourable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfi Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 To the people who pass, what are you going to do over 1♥-P-3/4♥ ? This is a decision I don't want to take which is a large part of the reason I open 1♠. Nobody has actually advocated passing this hand yet, so you may not get an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Nobody has actually advocated passing this hand yet, so you may not get an answer.Hrothgar said he was torn between pass/1♠ and said he had no problem with pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasetb Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 1♠ with every person I know, not even close. Only if you are old fashioned and want 9-12 as a Weak 2 (Fantunes not included, because of the system) should you open this 2♠. There is no other option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alik1974 Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 I would open this 1♠ or 2♠. To pass or bid any other number of ♠ is like trying to create a swing (depends on the state of the match if you would wish to do that) In a post in my blog I elaborate on the potential merits of deliberately alternating your bids under the exact same circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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