Not reaching a slam

[Hanoi5]

[hv=pc=n&s=s875hj653daq732ca&n=sakj6432hdk95c984&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1h1s3c4spp5cdp5hp5sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

I don't think 4♠ was a good bid, but what about the pass over it by North? Does the 5♥ neccessarily deny a diamond control or show a first round heart control?

[SteveMoe]

...Perhaps 4♣ might work better than the jump to 4♠. Partner now has the space to cue 4♥ before East continues to 5♣. This lets South bid 5♦ instead of Double, and North will wake up...

 

3♦ is also a live possibility, but partner might be in the dark about ♠ support.

[rmnka447]

North pass over South's 4 ♠ seems OK because North has no idea how good is South's raise to 4 ♠. It's quite possible that South might be pushing a little in bidding 4 ♠.

 

East's 5 ♣ has tossed a monkey wrench into the ability of North/South to cue. At that level, any cues ought to be first round controls if not previously shown. In the given auction, East's 5 ♣ bid has proved effective as South can't know for sure that North holds ♦ K.

 

My agreement with my best partner is that any 4 level cue of an opponent's suit must show a control. So after East's 3 ♣ bid, South could show a forcing ♠ raise and ♣ control by bidding 4 ♣. Now after a 4 ♥ cue by North and 5 ♣ by East, South could cue 5 ♦. North will at least have a shot at bidding slam in that case.

[Cyberyeti]

S could bid 4♦ fit jump first up, but that really depends what you overcall 1♠ on, ours are sounder than most. 4♣ is also possible.

[Free]

4♠ is not a strong raise, so you can't blame North for passing. South has a clear cuebid, so blame goes to South.

[rhm]

4♠ is not a strong raise, so you can't blame North for passing. South has a clear cuebid, so blame goes to South.

Dubious and muddled thinking.

 

At the point of the 3♣ bid, how can South anticipate that there are zero losers in the majors and to boot North will fill the gap in diamonds as well?

As North, I would expect more than 3 little trumps and 2 bullets from a cuebid at this level after a simple one level overcall at all white.

Claiming that a jump to 4♠ is weak and therefor you should cuebid on any game invitational hand after a one-level overcall will either lead to no play slams or the cuebid will be almost meaningless to overcaller and you will miss many slams in spite of the cuebid.

(At the table with only one hand in view that is, double dummy such cuebids work perfectly of course)

 

Whatever 4♠ is, it must show something to deem it profitable to contract for ten tricks opposite a one level overcall.

For starters the club ace was not needed for slam and without it the South hand would have hardly have been worth a 4♠ bid let alone a cuebid.

If South is weak with long spades, almost impossible when you hold a strong seven card spade suit yourself, opponents will not let you play in 4♠ anyway.

For all North knows opponents might be cold for 7♥ after the 4♠ bid.

Accordingly North pass of 4♠ is dubious, reinforced by the fact that afterwards North bid 5♥ anyway.

 

I squarely blame North.

 

However, I would also not have overcalled 1♠ but 4♠ with the North hand.

That way I might have missed slam too, but at least I get compensation when the preempt works and conditions for that are excellent after RHO opened 1♥.

I feel strongly giving opponents room when holding such a hand is losing Bridge strategy and as this example shows the claim that going slowly will give you a better potential to find your own best contract is hogwash.

 

The bidding might have gone

 

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1h4s5c5dp5hp6sppp]133|100[/hv]

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

South was crazy, he deceived partner, and then when opponents gave him a chance to recover denied it.

 

South has to make a stronger move, both 4♣ and 4♦ are far better than 4♠. I think 4♣ stands out because he has a very low ODR hand. 4♣ creates a forcing pass while 4♦ doesn't. And he knows opponents are not buying it undoubled having 2 aces.

 

Regardless of what 4x south picks the grand is automatic for north who will use a splinter void showing bid (if you play exclusion this is a 4♥ followed by 5♥ bid)

[ahydra]

I think I like 4S rather than 1S by North, leading to rhm's auction. We do want to be in grand, but that looks almost impossible to find given you need to discover the eight-card diamond fit to the AKQ.

 

ahydra

[ggwhiz]

A lot depends on the meaning of the 3♣ bid. If it was fit showing South is well worth a 4♣ cue.

 

When my pard bids 4♠ in an auction like this I just hope to get out for down 2.

[gszes]

I dislike the 4s bid it is entirely too preemptive for a hand with this much well placed power.

If the 3c bid was a fit jump the knowledge that p is short in hearts surely makes this hand seem

even more robust than ever and it calls for a 4c bid. If the 3c bid was not a fi jump than 3h seems

better to me. 4d fit jump takes up too much room but can work as long as p is allowed to cue bid

4h w/o a club control.

[rhm]

...

 

When my pard bids 4♠ in an auction like this I just hope to get out for down 2.

I am pretty sure if that is the case you do not fulfill your obligation of full disclosure to your opponents, which is plain cheating.

If informed by a proper alert, they would never let you play 4♠ undoubled and play Pass as forcing, which would make a mockery of the 4♠ bid.

Shows what nonsense such remarks are.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

I am pretty sure if that is the case you do not fulfill your obligation of full disclosure to your opponents, which is plain cheating.

If informed by a proper alert, they would never let you play 4♠ undoubled and play Pass as forcing, which would make a mockery of the 4♠ bid.

Shows what nonsense such remarks are.

 

Rainer Herrmann

What alert ? it's above 3N, you are not allowed to alert it here.

[rhm]

What alert ? it's above 3N, you are not allowed to alert it here.

With all respect Sir, if you are playing in a region, where full disclosure is not an objective and you can have undisclosed agreements you are playing a different game.

Under the Bridge proprieties this is cheating.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[P_Marlowe]

Slam makes, because you have a double fit, which neith side was aware of.

 

If you have a fit jump avalaible, than you show the diamonds and the spade fit,

as long as the South fits your fit jump agreements.

 

I dont like the 4S bid, unless your 1S overcalls are sounder than average, given

your inv. strength and your 4 hearts, you may go down in 4S, when they would have

let you play 3S.

 

But maybe the player did not want to try out 3D, and playing IMPs overbidding

is a reasonable strategy, so 4S is ok.

And if this is the case, you missed the slame also because of a lack of more

detailed agreements.

 

On further thinking: 5H by North should show a void and unexpected spade length,

make this 6 1/2.

Due to this South could see the double fit in diamonds, see the prime cards.

 

But maybe Norths bids similar with the same hand, without the King of diamonds,

because he did not want to make a preemptive bid, for whatever reasons, maybe

he has a 6043, instead of the 7033.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

With all respect Sir, if you are playing in a region, where full disclosure is not an objective and you can have undisclosed agreements you are playing a different game.

Under the Bridge proprieties this is cheating.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

This is a ridiculous comment - as ridiculous as blaming Nth for failing to bid on. In a jurisdiction where bids over 3NT are not alertable, your "proper alert" would in fact be tantamount to cheating.

Anyway, 4S is a poor bid showing more spades and fewer values than the Sth hand actually held.

[rhm]

Slam makes, because you have a double fit, which neith side was aware of.

 

If you have a fit jump avalaible, than you show the diamonds and the spade fit,

as long as the South fits your fit jump agreements.

 

I dont like the 4S bid, unless your 1S overcalls are sounder than average, given

your inv. strength and your 4 hearts, you may go down in 4S, when they would have

let you play 3S.

 

But maybe the player did not want to try out 3D, and playing IMPs overbidding is

a reasonable strategy, so 4S is ok.

And if this is the case, you missed the slame also because of a lack of more detailed

agreements.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

This is about right.

A reasonable alternative to 4♠ is 3♥, an invitation to 4♠. Overcaller can sign off in 3♠.

4♣ is a slam try, a huge overbid with the South hand.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

With all respect Sir, if you are playing in a region, where full disclosure is not an objective and you can have undisclosed agreements you are playing a different game.

Under the Bridge proprieties this is cheating.

 

Rainer Herrmann

Not at all, if they ask about the 4♠ bid you have to tell them but until they do, you are not allowed to do anything, you are committing an infraction if you do.

[rhm]

Not at all, if they ask about the 4♠ bid you have to tell them but until they do, you are not allowed to do anything, you are committing an infraction if you do.

I do not know under which jurisdiction, you are playing.

I play myself under one, where alerts over 3NT are prohibited when playing without screens, but with an important caveat.

All bids even above 3NT have to be alerted with screens or if they happen on the first round of the bidding and that covers the above case.

The alert procedure is there to make opponents aware of unusual agreements, which I consider you have if you are opting for

"2 down at least" if you bid game immediately by a single jump by an unlimited hand.

Undisclosed agreements should not be part of the game and you should not try to take advantage of them.

If opponents would ask about each and every bid above 3NT every time because you just might have a special agreement is theoretical possible but not practical.

Try that on your next tournament.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

I do not know under which jurisdiction, you are playing.

I play myself under one, where alerts over 3NT are prohibited when playing without screens, but with an important caveat.

All bids even above 3NT have to be alerted with screens or if they happen on the first round of the bidding and that covers the above case.

The alert procedure is there to make opponents aware of unusual agreements, which I consider you have if you are opting for

"2 down at least" if you bid game immediately by a single jump by an unlimited hand.

Undisclosed agreements should not be part of the game and you should not try to take advantage of them.

If opponents would ask about each and every bid above 3NT every time because you just might have a special agreement is theoretical possible but not practical.

Try that on your next tournament.

 

Rainer Herrmann

As it clearly states by the side of my post I come from England so EBU, only opening bids above 3N are alertable.

[Zelandakh]

I think that saying a poster who follows their local regulations perfectly is cheating because those regulations do not say what you think they should is completely out of order. Having played under both I personally find the the EBU alerting regulations significantly better than those of the DBV. You probably think that makes me a cheat too, right. You owe Cyberyeti an apology.

[rhm]

I think that saying a poster who follows their local regulations perfectly is cheating because those regulations do not say what you think they should is completely out of order. Having played under both I personally find the the EBU alerting regulations significantly better than those of the DBV. You probably think that makes me a cheat too, right. You owe Cyberyeti an apology.

I said:

 

With all respect Sir, if you are playing in a region, where full disclosure is not an objective and you can have undisclosed agreements you are playing a different game.

Under the Bridge proprieties this is cheating.

 

I stand by it and see no reason for any apology for stating the obvious. Secret or hidden agreements are not part of this game.

The game breaks down if you do not believe in full disclosure and this is even true if you take advantage of not having to alert certain bids.

How you manage alerts and screens and how you make opponents aware of your agreements is complex and has many additional practical aspects I admit.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

I have tried a reality check and raised the issue what South should bid over 3♣ at Bridge winners:

 

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-problem-782/

 

To date there are 75 votes and 14 comments

 

10% voted for 4♠

18% voted for 3♠

56% (!) voted for 3♥, understood as a stronger invite than 3♠, which would also be my choice.

 

0% that is nobody voted for 4♦!

6% (!) of the votes were for 4♣!

 

It is my impression that many, who comment on this forum should try more strongly to approach ATB problems with less hindsight or they might benefit from a reality check on themselves.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

It is laughable that first set of coments I read there is people willing to show diamonds + spades but not knowing how!?, they are even suggesting double.

 

There is little difference between 3♥ or 4♣, a cuebid will get you to slam with north's hand and probably grand. I don't deny that 3♥ might be better, depends on how light partner tends to overcall.

 

Dubious and muddled thinking.

 

At the point of the 3♣ bid, how can South anticipate that there are zero losers in the majors and to boot North will fill the gap in diamonds as well?

As North, I would expect more than 3 little trumps and 2 bullets from a cuebid at this level after a simple one level overcall at all white.

Claiming that a jump to 4♠ is weak and therefor you should cuebid on any game invitational hand after a one-level overcall will either lead to no play slams or the cuebid will be almost meaningless to overcaller and you will miss many slams in spite of the cuebid.

(At the table with only one hand in view that is, double dummy such cuebids work perfectly of course)

 

Whatever 4♠ is, it must show something to deem it profitable to contract for ten tricks opposite a one level overcall.

For starters the club ace was not needed for slam and without it the South hand would have hardly have been worth a 4♠ bid let alone a cuebid.

If South is weak with long spades, almost impossible when you hold a strong seven card spade suit yourself, opponents will not let you play in 4♠ anyway.

For all North knows opponents might be cold for 7♥ after the 4♠ bid.

Accordingly North pass of 4♠ is dubious, reinforced by the fact that afterwards North bid 5♥ anyway.

 

I squarely blame North.

 

However, I would also not have overcalled 1♠ but 4♠ with the North hand.

That way I might have missed slam too, but at least I get compensation when the preempt works and conditions for that are excellent after RHO opened 1♥.

I feel strongly giving opponents room when holding such a hand is losing Bridge strategy and as this example shows the claim that going slowly will give you a better potential to find your own best contract is hogwash.

 

The bidding might have gone

 

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1h4s5c5dp5hp6sppp]133|100[/hv]

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

 

 

Your option is 3♥ Rainer? glad you mentioned it so clearly when you wrote 16 lines defending north because 4♠ showed values:

or maybe you didn't mention it at all?

[rhm]

It is laughable that first set of coments I read there is people willing to show diamonds + spades but not knowing how!?, they are even suggesting double.

 

There is little difference between 3♥ or 4♣, a cuebid will get you to slam with north's hand and probably grand.

 

 

 

 

Your option is 3♥ Rainer? glad you mentioned it so clearly when you wrote 16 lines defending north because 4♠ showed values:

or maybe you didn't mention it at all?

 

You are mistaken and apparently do not understand what I said nor what people, probably better than you are, say or imply at Bridge winnrers.

 

3♥ in this sequence is an invite to game, not to slam. If overcaller bids 3♠ you are done.

4♠ is acceptable (though not my choice). It is an overbid and not an underbid.

4♣ opposite a non vulnerable one level overcall is plain crazy!

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

This is what you wrote in reply to Free

4♠ is not a strong raise, so you can't blame North for passing. South has a clear cuebid, so blame goes to South.

Dubious and muddled thinking.

It sure sounds from this like you are suggesting that bidding 3♥ here is bad. It seems now like this was based on a miscommunication. I have noticed this happens quite a lot in your bidding threads. As it is, I think there is plenty of support for 3♥ here too, although I suspect several play this as "invite or better" rather than specifically an invite, thus allowing the direct 4♠ raise to be weaker. The suggestion of 4m was specifically made within the context of overcalls being much stronger than normal. It is like suggesting that forcing to game with 9 hcp opposite a 1♣ opener is "crazy" without paying any attention that the 1♣ opening is Precision.

 

In order to get to the bottom of this as an ATB, I think the question that needs to be asks is what 4♠ means on this sequence without giving a hand. It is quite possible that the 2 players involved had a disagreement about that. In that case, the correct scapegoat is probably lack of system. Perhaps Hanoi can tell us what agreements (if any) were in place for 3♥ and 4♠ at South's first turn.