Small Slam or Grand?

[barsikb]

My partner opened 2NT. Shall I just bid 6NT or ...?[hv=pc=n&n=sakjhjtdk72cqjt42]133|100[/hv]

[billw55]

6NT for me under any normal circumstance.

 

Might consider 7NT if behind late in a team match (and if I have no way to check for aces first). It's a big gamble, but at least I can be sure ops will bid six.

[RunemPard]

No...If playing puppet stayman we can find...

 

Qxxxx

AQx

AJx

AK

 

Not to mention many other layouts...

We have no reason to not look for a better contract here.

[daveharty]

There are a lot of bids between 2NT and 6NT. I will try one of those, hoping to collect information that will better inform the 6/7 decision later.

[P_Marlowe]

Depends on your 2NT opening bid range.

 

You have 15, if partner has 20-21, you have at most 36.

Your 15 count is average, lots of jacks / Queens, lots of your honors

are in your short suit, but you have a good side suit.

 

For 7NT you need 37, I think it is close, I dont mind 6NT, the alternative

would be 5NT, inviting the grand.

You should at least invite, if opener can have 22HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

There are plenty of hands that make the grand, Qxxx, Axx, AQx, AKx is a baddish flat 19 for example. I would find out as much as I possibly can about partner's hand before I have to make the final decision, so looks like time for a 3♣ bid of whatever flavour you use.

[Zelandakh]

If I only had one bid (partner is silenced or whatever) it would be 6NT (assuming 2NT is 20-21 anyway). If I have the ability to show 5 clubs and slam interest (eg with 3♣ followed by 4♣ or by using Baron) then I would do that instead, hoping to gather enough information to make a more informed decision later, or to put partner in a position to make the decision.

[barsikb]

Thank you for all of your valuable opinions.

 

Here is the actual hand of partner:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjhjtdk72cqjt42&n=sqt64ha5daqj9cak8]133|200[/hv]

 

Making 7 of anything but hearts

 

If using Puppet Stayman:

 

2NT - 3C

3D - ...?

[P_Marlowe]

Thank you for all of your valuable opinions.

 

Here is the actual hand of partner:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjhjtdk72cqjt42&n=sqt64ha5daqj9cak8]133|200[/hv]

 

Making 7 of anything but hearts

 

If using Puppet Stayman:

 

2NT - 3C

3D - ...?

 

You could set spades as trumps, and start the asking Sequence, which would allow

you to find out

 

- the Queen of spades => 4 tricks

- the Ace of Hearts and that the King of hearts is missing => 1 trick

- the Ace of Diamonds => 2 tricks

- the Ace / the King of clubs => 5tricks

 

You have only used 17 HCP, of the 20-21, but you know your missing the King

of hearts.

A 4333 shape or a shape with 44 in the majors is still possible with opener.

 

Absent complicate methods, that would help you to locate the Queen of diamonds,

I dont see, how you can bid 7 with confidence.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

How about:

 

2NT - 3♣;

3♦ - 4♣;*

4♥ - 4♠;

4NT - 5♣;

5♦ - 5♠;

5NT - 6♦;

7NT

 

4♣ shows clubs and slam interest. 4♥ is a cue bid (I am assuming 4♦ would be natural; if not then bid that instead). 4♠ is also a cue bid. 4NT asks and 5♣ shows 1 or 4. 5♦ asks about ♣Q. 5♠ shows ♣Q and ♠K but denies ♥K. 5NT asks about ♦K. Unfortunately this auction, while simpler than queen asks, is still probably too advanced for N/B.

 

* As P_Marlowe points out below, you might need to adjust the auction here to take account of which version you have been taught.

[P_Marlowe]

How about:

 

2NT - 3♣;

3♦ - 4♣;

4♥ - 4♠;

4NT - 5♣;

5♦ - 5♠;

5NT - 6♦;

7NT

 

4♣ shows clubs and slam interest. 4♥ is a cue bid (I am assuming 4♦ would be natural; if not then bid that instead). 4♠ is also a cue bid. 4NT asks and 5♣ shows 1 or 4. 5♦ asks about ♣Q. 5♠ shows ♣Q and ♠K but denies ♥K. 5NT asks about ♦K. Unfortunately this auction, while simpler than queen asks, is still probably too advanced for N/B.

I dont play Puppet Stayman, and I am assuming that 3C in the given sequence is Puppet,

is 4C not used to show 44 in the majors?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Looking at your original post, 3C was most likely meant as simple Stayman.

[fromageGB]

Unfortunately, we fall foul of the fact that there are different ways of playing puppet stayman and gerber. Many here play 2NT 3♣ 3NT as denying a 4 card major, and 4♣ then not setting the suit, but ace asking (responder was looking for a 4-4 major fit first).

 

I think that a simple 2NT 3♣ 3NT(or whatever denies a 4 or 5 card spade suit) 6NT is the practical bid unless entirely on the same wavelength.

[Zelandakh]

Ja Uwe, you are right but the problem here is that we do not know which version has been taught so I was trying to simplify somewhat. In the version I play, Responder would bid 3♥ over 3♦ to asks if Opener has 4 spades, then bid 4♣ over 3♠ as a natural slam try. The trouble is that most learn a different form where 3♥ promises 4 spades. In that case you either lose the minor suit slam tries (and need to include them somewhere else) or bid 3♥ with both majors intending to correct 3NT to hearts (with wrong-siding issues). It was pointless to guess so I just glossed over hoping the OP would be able to make adjustments for system. I will add a note to the previous post to make this clearer.

[Cyberyeti]

Using the 5 card major enquiry I use:

 

2N-3♣

3♦(no 5M, also not 2♠/2/3♥)-4♣(nat)

4♥(KC ♣, 4♦ would be natural)-4N (1/4)

5♦(Q♣ ?)-5♠(yes and K♠)

5N(anything else)-6♦(K♦)

7N(5♣+4♦+1♥+3♠ = 13, if the clubs don't run, maybe there will be a 4th spade trick and a heart finesse to take)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You could set spades as trumps, and start the asking Sequence, which would allow

you to find out

 

- the Queen of spades => 4 tricks

- the Ace of Hearts and that the King of hearts is missing => 1 trick

- the Ace of Diamonds => 2 tricks

- the Ace / the King of clubs => 5tricks

 

You have only used 17 HCP, of the 20-21, but you know your missing the King

of hearts.

Good analysis.

At this point Responder knows we are cold for 12 tricks at NT.

 

Responder knows that Opener MUST have at least ONE of the RED Queens ( along with one of the red Jacks ) for his count ... or BOTH Q ( and no Jacks ).... [the red Jacks aren't important ] .

-- with BOTH Q , you are cold for 13 tricks

-- with the ♦Q only you are cold for 13 tricks

-- with the ♥ Q only, you have a 50% chance for 13 tricks.

 

I've been told if you have a 50% chance you should take it .

Here the odds are greater than 50% .

 

On the other hand, I've also been told you should be able to count "14" tricks before bidding the grand .

[Cascade]

If I only had one bid (partner is silenced or whatever) it would be 6NT (assuming 2NT is 20-21 anyway). If I have the ability to show 5 clubs and slam interest (eg with 3♣ followed by 4♣ or by using Baron) then I would do that instead, hoping to gather enough information to make a more informed decision later, or to put partner in a position to make the decision.

 

If I only had one bid (partner is silenced or whatever) it would be 7NT (assuming 2NT is 20-21 anyway). With no other information I think 7NT is a huge favourite to make.

 

With more bids I will investigate strain and level. Obviously I want to know about the aces and kings for a Grand. I also may wish to identify a fit 7♠, 7♦ or 7♣ all could be better if we belong in a grand.

[Vampyr]

I dont play Puppet Stayman, and I am assuming that 3C in the given sequence is Puppet,

is 4C not used to show 44 in the majors?

 

By many people. It is a really rubbish agreement.

[TylerE]

For 7NT you need 37,

 

No, you don't.

 

You need 13

 

That 37pt thing is such a load of crap. Out of thousands and thousands of bridge hands I've played, that has not once been a useful guideline.

[barsikb]

fromageGB: "Many here play 2NT 3♣ 3NT as denying a 4 card major, and 4♣ then not setting the suit, but ace asking..."

That's exactly how I learned it

[barsikb]

Zelandakh: "The trouble is that most learn a different form where 3♥ promises 4 spades"

 

Yes! Where can I read a better version?

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh: "The trouble is that most learn a different form where 3♥ promises 4 spades"

 

Yes! Where can I read a better version?

What I think is the best version which I haven't actually switched to playing yet:

 

2N-3♣-

 

3M = 5 cards

3N = 2♠, 2/3♥

3♦ = none of the above, ie no 5M, 4M or 3♠ (so you can use this with 5♠/4♥, and if partner bids 3♦ you know you're playing 4M)

 

over 3♦:

 

3♥ = (not 4♥) or 5♠/4♥ over which 3♠ by opener shows 4

3♠ = 4♥ not 4♠

3N = 4-4 majors

[fromageGB]

over 3♦:

3♥ = (not 4♥) or 5♠/4♥ over which 3♠ by opener shows 4

3♠ = 4♥ not 4♠

3N = 4-4 majors

This one is new to me (I rolled my own). Can you clarify what happens when opener has 32xx shape and responder 54xx? Presumably 3♦ 3♥ 3NT 4♥ transfer to 4♠?

 

And if opener has 24xx shape, responder 54xx? I can't see how this works.

[fromageGB]

Surely if responder has a 54xx hand and opener bids 3♦, then as you are playing in a major you can bid 4♣ (or 4♦) to show that shape and let opener pick the contract. But then that loses the ability to have that 4m bid mean something else. Maybe not important.

 

After 3♦ ..

.. 3♥ = none of the following (may have 4 spades)

.. 3♠ = 4 hearts, not 4 spades

.. 3NT = 4 spades + 4 hearts

.. 4♦ = 54xx

[Cyberyeti]

This one is new to me (I rolled my own). Can you clarify what happens when opener has 32xx shape and responder 54xx? Presumably 3♦ 3♥ 3NT 4♥ transfer to 4♠?

 

And if opener has 24xx shape, responder 54xx? I can't see how this works.

It's not a proper puppet. 4m is much better as natural in the 2N-3♣-3♦-3♥-3N sequence hence 4♥ shows 54xx and opener passes/corrects to 4♠. You only fail to get opener playing the contract in a major when responder is 54xx and opener has 4 hearts and not 4 spades (you made your bed there when responder bid 3♥).

 

The only difficult bit to remember is that if you want to bid 2N-3♣-3♦-3N to play you have to interpolate 3♥

[fromageGB]

OK, but this is a big downside to have the 6 count playing the hand, and the 20 count down as dummy. My method has different downsides - it is a question of choosing your least evil.