1C strong or canape?

[relknes]

I have long been interested in canape bidding, for a lot of reasons. However, I never liked the "ambiguous length" rebids that often happen in strong club systems that use canape with sequences like 1♥-1♠-2♣. Half of your two suited hands will have clubs as one of the suits, so these are fairly frequent.

I have also been interested in two-way club systems that use a "strong or natural" 1♣ opening, which tends to leave the 2m bids open for preemptive actions as well as having a more useful 1♦ opening.

I was currious if anyone has ever tried a 1♣ opening that was "Strong or canape"? In other words, it would more or less deny a 4 card major, but could have 4 clubs with a 5+ side suit, OR 6+ clubs, OR a strong hand.

Would such an opening be workable?

[PrecisionL]

There are many resources on the internet for canape. However, I do not know of any which match your request exactly.

 

George Coffin's natural big club, 1969: "Although the 1♣ bid is forcing once, it is strictly natural and it guarantees four club cards..." The hand may contain a longer suit (canape).

 

See Ken Rexford's blog and M.I.C.S. http://cuebiddingatbridge.blogspot.com/

 

Ultra Club Relay has canape galore as opening bids of 1♦, 1♥, or 1♠. Another interesting idea is to have canape positive responses in the majors to a strong & artificial opening bid of 1♣.

 

Ref: http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/Ultra.pdf

[relknes]

Hey, after quite a bit of research, I actually found one! It is called the "Valentine Club."

It uses more of a relay structure than I am used to, so I will probably try to craft my own responses if I decide to pursue it (that is most of the fun of creating a system after all), but it is encouraging to know that someone has tried it before, so the basic premise should be sound.

[Siegmund]

I don't care for the ambiguous length rebids after a canape 1M opening either. I am currently experimenting with the following method to avoid them -- I do not honestly know if it works as well as I hope it does, but I dont recall seeing it previously:

 

1H-1S-1NT: "I am willing to discuss a 4-4 minor fit."

1H-1S-2m: promises 5+m even if weak (still doesn't tell us if 4H or 5H yet.)

1H-1NT, 1S-1NT: "I am willing to discuss a 4-4 minor fit."

1S-2D, etc: "I don't care if you have a 4-card side suit, only tell me about 5+"

In competition that takes us past 1NT, perhaps NegX implies willingness to hear about 4-card suits and anything else means only bid 5+ suits.

[Free]

Using transfer openings (like in MOSCITO) you can get rid of the ambiguous length easily because you get an extra call. Step 1 is a relay (doesn't need to be strong) and opener clarifies:

After 1♦(unbal with 4+♥)-1♥(general relay):

1♠ = at least 4-4M (4=4=(41) or 4♠-5+♥)

1NT = longer m

2m = 5+♥, 4+m

2♥ = 6+♥ no side suit

Similar after 1♥(unbal with 4+♠)-1♠(general relay).

 

We don't play canapé with both Majors because we raise quickly and aggressively, so we don't want to raise the shortest Major. So 1♥-1♠-2♥ shows 5+♠, 4+♥. One could easily play canapé though, but this would no longer keep the structure "simple" (= new suit at 2-level shows 5+M, 1NT shows longer side suit). You could also open 1♥ whenever you have both Majors and make 1♥-1♠-1NT exactly 4♠ with longer m/♥; and make 1♥-1♠-2♥ 5+♠ and 4+♥. This would damage our relays however. Or you could say that 1♦-1♥-2♠ shows 5+♠-4♥ while 1♥-1♠-2♥ shows 4+♠-5+♥ (again damaging the relays). There are various solutions if you insist on playing canapé with both Majors, or if you want to get ♠s in whenever you have them.

 

With both minors we can't get rid of the ambiguity because there's simply no space: 1♠(unbal with 4+♦)-1NT(general relay)-2♣ shows both minors either way. Can even be 7♣-4♦. Because of full relay structures we don't open 2♣ with 6+♣ and 4♦.

[Free]

I've seen pairs play natural canapé when they're weak, and natural non-canapé when they're strong. So 1♣-1♦-1♠ would be something like up to 17HCP with 4♣-5♠ while 1♣-1♦-2♠ would be your normal reverse with 5♣-4♠. Similar with other openings: 1♠-1NT-2m shows 4♠-5m, while 1♠-1NT-3m shows a max with 5♠-4m. This is however not a strong ♣ system, and somewhere you need to be able to show your balanced hands, 4441's and 5-5's as well. I also don't know how forcing these openings are, and what they can do to force game. I believe they still use 2♣ for strong hands, but I'm not sure.

[kenrexford]

The ambiguous length rebids was entirely the reason for MICS development. (See http://www.amazon.com/Modified-Italian-Canape-System-Rexford/dp/1554947502.)

 

As a rough intro:

 

1♣ = strong

1♦ = diamond canape, diamond one-suiter, or CLUB ONE-SUITER (the "Flamingo" innovation)

1♥ = TRUE canape approach (no tendency canape)

1♠ = TRUE canape

1NT = 13-16 balanced

2♣ = 4-4-4-1 types, any short (improves wildly on Mini-Roman because of 2♦ strength/shape ask)

2♦ = both minors

2M = Roman (5+ in major, 4+ in clubs)

 

Note that the club-dominant hands are handled in MICS by (1) a Flamingo diamond (which is enabled itself by the 2♦ opening), and (2) the two-suited 2-bids (clubs secondary).

[mike777]

An older system Simple Club

 

 

1c=strong

1d, 1h, 1s shows two suited hand 100% of the time... 4+ cards in bid suit and canape, longer second suit often but not 100%. In other words at least 4-5 with the second unknown suit often longer than the first bid suit.

1nt=12-15

2c=3 suited, 4441 or 4450

2d,2h.2s, 2nt(shows clubs) and 3c all one suited hands int range(less than strong club)

 

Note this system does not play weak 2 level bids.

 

 

You stated you were worried about the ambigious length rebids, this system has a way to show if the second suit is shorter than the first. For starters it is somewhat rare but the system can tell you. You are correct in that most of the time this involves the club suit.

[ucrman]

I have a system that I call Super Canape with the opening bids as follows:

1C - Shows one of following hand types, always guarantees 2+ Cs.

- balanced hand (4-3-3-3, 4-4-3-2, 5-3-3-2) with 12-14 HCP.

- balanced hand (4-3-3-3, 4-4-3-2, 5-3-3-2) with 18-20 HCP.

- 6+ Cs without a side 4-card suit, 11+ HCP.

- 4+ Cs and 5+ cards in another suit, 16+ HCP (secondary Cs). Could have 6 Cs and a 5-card major.

- balanced hand with 24+ HCP, may have 5 Cs with 23+ HCP.

1D – 11+ HCP with 4+ Ds, shows one of the following types of hands:

- 6+ Ds - 11+ HCP (usually ignore 4-card C suit unless very strong.)

- 4+Ds and 5+ cards in another suit, 11+ HCP (10+ HCP with 5-5). Usually open 2D or 1C with 5 Ds and 5 Cs. Open 1D with 5-6 Ds and a 5-card major.

- A strong balanced hand, 23-24+ HCP with 5-6 Ds.

1H – 10+ HCP with 4 + Hs, shows one of the following types of hands:

- 6+ Hs - a good 10+ HCP, generally ignore 4-card m’s.

- 4+ Hs and 5+ cards in another suit, 11+ HCP. Usually open 1S with 5 Ss and 5 Hs.

- A strong balanced hand, 23-24+ HCP with 5 Hs.

1S - 10+ HCP with 4 + Ss, shows one of the following types of hands:

- 6+ Ss - a good 10+ HCP, generally ignore 4-card m’s. Usually open 1S with 5 Ss and 5 Hs.

- 4+ Ss and 5+ cards in another suit, 11+ HCP (10+ HCP with 5 Ss and 5 Hs).

- A strong balanced hand, 23-24+ HCP with 5 Ss.

1NT - 15-17 HCP. All 4-3-3-3, 4-4-3-2, and 5-3-3-2 hands with 15-17 HCP should be opened 1NT.

2C – 12+ HCP with 4-4-5-0 or 4-4-0-5, usually not a 5-card major, 13+ HCP with short Ss.

2D – 11-15 HCP with 5+Ds and 4+Cs. Ds are longer than or equal to Cs.

2M - 11-15 HCP with 5 cards in the M and 4+ Cs (10+ HCP with 5-5). May have 6 Cs and a 5-card M or a 6-card M with 5 Cs.

2NT - 21-23 HCP, balanced

3NT - Gambling, no outside A or K, solid 7 or 8 card minor.

[rbforster]

I have a system that I call Super Canape...

 

2C – 12+ HCP with 4-4-5-0 or 4-4-0-5, usually not a 5-card major, 13+ HCP with short Ss.

A couple of quick questions -

 

1. Are your 1 level openings forcing, since you include 23-24pt balance hands?

2. What do you open 4441's?

3. Your 2C opening as 5440 seems super rare. I'd be inclined to use that for something else that could otherwise improve your system.

[ucrman]

1. Are your 1 level openings forcing, since you include 23-24pt balance hands? Yes they are all deemed to be forcing as well as the 2C opening.

2. What do you open 4441's? The 2C bid shows all three suiters and is deemed to be forcing.

3. Your 2C opening as 5440 seems super rare. I'd be inclined to use that for something else that could otherwise improve your system.

[PrecisionL]

An older system Simple Club

 

1♣ = strong

1d, 1h, 1s shows two suited hand 100% of the time... 4+ cards in bid suit and canape, longer second suit often but not 100%. In other words at least 4-5 with the second unknown suit often longer than the first bid suit.

1nt=12-15

2c=3 suited, 4441 or 4450

2d,2h.2s, 2nt(shows clubs) and 3c all one suited hands int range(less than strong club)

 

Note this system does not play weak 2 level bids.

 

You stated you were worried about the ambigious length rebids, this system has a way to show if the second suit is shorter than the first. For starters it is somewhat rare but the system can tell you. You are correct in that most of the time this involves the club suit.

 

Do you mean the Simplified Club by Larry Weiss? http://www.nytimes.c...ed=print&src=pm

 

Canape overcalls: http://www.bridgebas...st-1nt-opening/