ACBL 1N question

[relknes]

The GCC says that conventional doubles and redoubles are allowed.

It also says that you cannot use conventions after a 1N opening that has a lower limit of less than 10 HCP.

So my question is, can you use conventional doubles and redoubles after partner opens a 1N that shows, say 9-12 points?

[Mbodell]

The GCC says that conventional doubles and redoubles are allowed.

It also says that you cannot use conventions after a 1N opening that has a lower limit of less than 10 HCP.

So my question is, can you use conventional doubles and redoubles after partner opens a 1N that shows, say 9-12 points?

 

Most people say no. Occasionally you'll get someone officialish that says that if they X you, then you should be able to XX as a run-out system, but other officialish people say no. There might also be some question about if you wanted X to be takeout if this counts as conventional or not (given that is basically the defacto standard meaning in many situations), and not 100% sure how that would be ruled. But basically if you open 1nt with less than 10, than you are "evil" in the eyes of the regulation and it is designed to make that as unplayable as possible.

[mycroft]

DISALLOWED on the GCC (or the relevant ACBL chart) supersedes any specific allowance. Yes, it's the Endicott Fudge, and I'm sure it's going away in favour of deeming the Fudged natural calls special partnership understandings that are not allowed as soon as someone on the Laws Commission is inconvenienced by it, but that is the way it works. It makes no sense to read the GCC any other way (granted, there are places it's hard to read the GCC any way).

[blackshoe]

There might also be some question about if you wanted X to be takeout if this counts as conventional or not (given that is basically the defacto standard meaning in many situations), and not 100% sure how that would be ruled.

Takeout doubles are conventional.

[barmar]

The intent of that part of the GCC is to make it really undesirable to play 1NT with a low minimum or wide range. So I think they did intend that "conventional" should be taken very literally -- no runouts, not takeout doubles, etc.

 

What they really wanted to do was prohibit the agreement entirely. But it was written when the Laws only allowed RAs to regulate conventions, not natural bids, so all they could do was prohibit all conventions after opening it. The current laws allow them to change it to a prohibition, but I suspect they won't bother -- the current formulation is pretty effective in stamping it out.

[Cthulhu D]

The intent of that part of the GCC is to make it really undesirable to play 1NT with a low minimum or wide range. So I think they did intend that "conventional" should be taken very literally -- no runouts, not takeout doubles, etc.

 

What they really wanted to do was prohibit the agreement entirely.

 

Has the reasoning ever been published? Things would be greatly improved if an article or whatever accompanied each of these decisions.

[blackshoe]

Things would be greatly improved if the ACBL could write regulations that made sense, and if they kept up with the laws. It would be really simple to revise the GCC in this area: "A natural NT opening with a minimum of fewer than 10 HCP is designated a special partnership understanding, and is prohibited". It could then be allowed on the Midchart or the Superchart, if TPTB want to do that. I think the current status is that the prohibition on conventions after such an opening applies at all levels.I guess even Wolff and Hamman can't handle a pair who bid Stayman when their partner opens 1NT with 9 HCP. :ph34r:

[mycroft]

Specifically the "redouble for run" is disallowed: "including a conventional defence to [a] conventional defence", so it doesn't even matter if the double isn't penalty-oriented. IN ALLCAPS as the header of the section.

This also bans takeout doubles going forward (and blackwood three rounds later), as that, too, is conventional.

 

Conventional != not what everyone plays.