jillybean Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=s2hk3dkj9842cqj72]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Hi,playing SAYC, how can I make a gameforcing diamond bid after my partner opens 1nt? 3♣/♦ is only invitational. Bidding 2♣ (stayman) and then 3♦ shows slam interest (oops, GF?) 5+♦ but does this also guarantee 4♥/♠? tyiajillybean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 1N-2C-3D is correct in SAYC given that you don't play minor suit transfers. Since it is the only way to make a game forcing bid in a minor suit, it doesn't promise a 4 card major. By the way, while I agree with a game forcing diamond bid at IMPs as in this case, I'd just bid 3N with these cards at matchpoints. With no aces 6D is remote and I only want to be in 5D if 3N is going down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I don't see much use in showing your ♦ suit while you will usually play 3NT anyway. Unless you see some slam ambition in these cards, you can transfer ♦ and bid 3NT afterwards, otherwise just bid and play 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 playing sayc, i agree bidding 3nt might be the best way.. just 1nt : 3nt... this is why i love the methods i play, i can find out below 3nt which suit opener is short in (relatively short, that is - no 5422 hands are opened 1nt) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted December 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 [hv=d=e&v=n&n=st73haq42da6ca843&s=s2hk3dkj9842cqj72]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Pass Pass Pass 1NT Pass 2♣ Pass 2♥ Pass 3♦! Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand. Looks like there is no way under sayc to discover the ♠ shortage. :rolleyes:3nt went down jillybean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 There maybe no way under full sayc, but as i look at it, sayc should just be your base system, and you can and should add better structures, one of those can be 4 suits transfers, on which the bidding would go.1nt-2nt3C - 3S which show a long diamond suit and spade shorness. (with diamonds and spade you bid 2c first)Anyway im not expert in sayc, but imo after 3d a bid of h (instead of the 3nt) shows a heart stoper, no spade stop, but it should also show imo atleast 3 diamonds which this hand luck. The 3 cards diamond is importent, as it present a good chance that we have an alternative to 3nt (5D) without it the chances are that 5d wouldnt be a good alternative and therefore we better land in 3nt without telling the opponents about the spade problem. in this example 5d is a better contract (although still not a great game) but you cant be right every time.btw doesnt 1nt show 15-17 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 [hv=d=e&v=n&n=st73haq42da6ca843&s=s2hk3dkj9842cqj72]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West North East South - - Pass Pass Pass 1NT Pass 2♣ Pass 2♥ Pass 3♦! Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand. Looks like there is no way under sayc to discover the ♠ shortage. :rolleyes:3nt went down jillybean Opener with potential problems in two suits (I count Axxx a potential problem for NTs) and suit oriented rather than NT oriented cards is not obliged to bid 3NT. Which alternative bid you make will depend on your partnership style. I would like to temporize with 3♥ but if partner is going to think that you have five hearts I am not sure that that is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Simple solution: play Keri. Hearts aren't good enough to make a transfer splinter, so you transfer to clubs (2NT) and follow it up with 3D, showing 5-4 either way in the minors, then after 3H from opener (showing a serious problem in spades) you now bid 5D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit. I dunno about australia, but in west europe transfer to minors is the most popular. 1NT-3♣3♦-3♠ shows a GF hand with 6+♦ and ♠ shortness, works kinda perfectly on the given hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Simple solution: play Keri. Hearts aren't good enough to make a transfer splinter, so you transfer to clubs (2NT) and follow it up with 3D, showing 5-4 either way in the minors, then after 3H from opener (showing a serious problem in spades) you now bid 5D. There is no need to play something as complicated as keri for this hand. Almost any complete notrump system has a way to show one or both minors with a short major. I'm not sure what 1NT-2S is played as in sayc, perhaps this is a minor suit stayman? After that you could bid 3S, showing both minors and a stiff spade, that would do this hand justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit. Which bid promised four spades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: IMP ♠ T73 ♥ AQ42 ♦ A6 ♣ A843 ♠ 2 ♥ K3 ♦ KJ9842 ♣ QJ72 West North East South - - Pass Pass Pass 1NT Pass 2♣ Pass 2♥ Pass 3♦! Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand. Looks like there is no way under sayc to discover the ♠ shortage. :)3nt went down jillybeanGuess Partner miscounted his points and opened 1NT with only 14 :o now IF he doesn't open 1NT you NEVER get to 3NT :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted December 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 btw doesnt 1nt show 15-17 ?yes, it was a Kiwi light :lol: I play a lot with pickup partners so these hands are difficult, I will try out some of the suggestions with my reg partners - thanks!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit. Which bid promised four spades? 2♣ promises a 4 card major, when no 4♥ appear.. ok, you mean you have to bid 2♠ after 2♥?, I dunno, my stayman goes another way, not sure that is standard, and still... won´t you bid your 5♦ suit?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit. Which bid promised four spades? 2♣ promises a 4 card major, when no 4♥ appear.. ok, you mean you have to bid 2♠ after 2♥?, I dunno, my stayman goes another way, not sure that is standard, and still... won´t you bid your 5♦ suit?. Maybe that is true in your partnership but it is not in SAYC. The sequences: 1NT 2♣Any 3♣ and 1NT 2♣Any 3♦ are slam tries (or at least forcing) in a minor and do not promise a four-card major. I am sure that there is plenty of room to improve on particular SAYC sequences. And many do tinker with it. However that structure is well defined and documented as follows (after a 1NT opening): 2♣ Stayman but does not guarantee a major in a strong minor hand 2♦/♥ Jacoby Transfers 2♠ Weak with a long minor 2NT Invitational to 3NT 3♣/♦ Invitational with a six-card minor 3♥/♠ Slammish with a six-card major 3NT to play 4♣ Gerber 4♥/♠ to play 4NT Quantitative 5♣/♦ to play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Another relatively simple way to avoid the 3N trap is to play 3♥ / 3♠ as shortage with both minors. It is not a slam try, but could be if responder Q's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 As the auction 1NT-2S-something-3H/S seems free in sayc, I would use that. That way you don't have to change the meaning of any auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted December 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 this can be deleted <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 As the auction 1NT-2S-something-3H/S seems free in sayc, I would use that. That way you don't have to change the meaning of any auction. In a slightly different structure I frequently play 3♥/♠ after a minor suit takeout becomes slammish with clubs or diamonds respectively. I have recently modified this and started experimenting with 3♥/♠ showing a shortage with an undisclosed long minor. For other reasons we use 2NT as the takeout to a minor but you could easily graft this on to SAYC: 1NT 2NT - (use 2♠ in SAYC)3♣ 3♥ slammish with a minor 3♠ slammish with a minor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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