Deal #24

[Zelandakh]

I have not seen a spoiler for the 1♦ openers, so have just looked at the "full deal" spoiler instead. I think it is clear that East should bid 2♥ over 1♣ - 1♦ or 1♣ - 1♥. Then West will raise to 4. Some (many?) Wests will even try butting in on the first round, either with a 3-suited call or to show the majors at the 1 level. Then they get to 4♥ even faster.

 

As I mentioned before, my auction begins 1♦ - (P) - 1♠ (nat, weak). Is East bidding here? This shows one of the difficulties for the opponents when facing non-forcing responses. I suspect that most players would not overcall 2♥ here in an auction where 1♠ was forcing; but non-forcing puts a great deal more pressure on them with some values and shape. Assuming East does not bid, South now shows clubs and North supports diamonds. East may well come in now with 2♥. Whether East bids or not, South continues with 2NT. West may well add a raise here if East bid 2♥.

 

Now North has to make a decision. If West passed then options are: 3♦ to show a minimum (looks much too Walrusy to me); 3♥ to ask how good South's heart stopper is, then over 3NT either Pass (if the opps are too bad to find the (obvious) spade switch or 4♦ (which is non-forcing and, effectively, shows wasted heart values); 4♦ invitational; or 5♦ to play. I think it is tough to judge this knowing the hands. My first instinct was a direct jump to 5♦ but 3♥ is also highly appealing, since 5m with 21-22 hcp and significant wastage is somewhat optimistic. If West raised then it seems clear to raise diamonds, probably to game. The only other possibility I can see is 4♣ but I would prefer 4 clubs or Hxx for this really (yes a ten is an honour but bleurgh).

 

The end result will be either 4♦(S) or 5♦(S). 3NT is not really on the radar after 2NT because North knows for sure that the spades are wide open and the defenders will know this too once they see the Dummy.

 

Can you decide on an E-W bidding sequence for me please straube, so I can try and finalise an auction. Also, I think you should ask the strong clubbers to provide an auction based on the E-W interference of 2♥ from East (if sufficient), then raised to 4♥ by West (if sufficient). I think this is a far more realistic test and makes for a couple of tough decisions. It would be a great hand with N-S vulnerable imho, since 4♥X becomes less appealing that way.

 

The play also looks like it might be interesting and the hand could easily be posed as a defensive problem for E-W. Any of N-S's 3 possible games might easily make in practise, despite what (I assume) the DD solvers say. Even 4♥(E) could make on a really bad day. I certainly see worse contracts than all of these making in the local club and on BBO regularly.

[straube]

I have not seen a spoiler for the 1♦ openers, so have just looked at the "full deal" spoiler instead. I think it is clear that East should bid 2♥ over 1♣ - 1♦ or 1♣ - 1♥. Then West will raise to 4. Some (many?) Wests will even try butting in on the first round, either with a 3-suited call or to show the majors at the 1 level. Then they get to 4♥ even faster.

 

As I mentioned before, my auction begins 1♦ - (P) - 1♠ (nat, weak). Is East bidding here? This shows one of the difficulties for the opponents when facing non-forcing responses. I suspect that most players would not overcall 2♥ here in an auction where 1♠ was forcing; but non-forcing puts a great deal more pressure on them with some values and shape. Assuming East does not bid, South now shows clubs and North supports diamonds. East may well come in now with 2♥. Whether East bids or not, South continues with 2NT. West may well add a raise here if East bid 2♥.

 

Now North has to make a decision. If West passed then options are: 3♦ to show a minimum (looks much too Walrusy to me); 3♥ to ask how good South's heart stopper is, then over 3NT either Pass (if the opps are too bad to find the (obvious) spade switch or 4♦ (which is non-forcing and, effectively, shows wasted heart values); 4♦ invitational; or 5♦ to play. I think it is tough to judge this knowing the hands. My first instinct was a direct jump to 5♦ but 3♥ is also highly appealing, since 5m with 21-22 hcp and significant wastage is somewhat optimistic. If West raised then it seems clear to raise diamonds, probably to game. The only other possibility I can see is 4♣ but I would prefer 4 clubs or Hxx for this really (yes a ten is an honour but bleurgh).

 

The end result will be either 4♦(S) or 5♦(S). 3NT is not really on the radar after 2NT because North knows for sure that the spades are wide open and the defenders will know this too once they see the Dummy.

 

Can you decide on an E-W bidding sequence for me please straube, so I can try and finalise an auction. Also, I think you should ask the strong clubbers to provide an auction based on the E-W interference of 2♥ from East (if sufficient), then raised to 4♥ by West (if sufficient). I think this is a far more realistic test and makes for a couple of tough decisions. It would be a great hand with N-S vulnerable imho, since 4♥X becomes less appealing that way.

 

The play also looks like it might be interesting and the hand could easily be posed as a defensive problem for E-W. Any of N-S's 3 possible games might easily make in practise, despite what (I assume) the DD solvers say. Even 4♥(E) could make on a really bad day. I certainly see worse contracts than all of these making in the local club and on BBO regularly.

 

How do others feel about a 2H preempt by East? I suggested 1H over a 1D response because 1) it's not clear that it's the clubbers hand and 2) the hand has some defense and 3) the suit is bad. OTOH 2H certainly puts it to the opps.

 

Zelandakh, if you get support for 2H then we'll amend the problem. If it's divided then I think we should go with 1H since some of these are just judgment calls and I set up the problem this way.

 

Regarding your 1D P 1S auction, I'm tempted to bid with the East hand...in which case West raises to 4H. The knr for East is 11.45 which isn't great actually but the spade honors might be positioned well plus it has a preemptive effect of the opponents belong in a minor. What do others think?

[hrothgar]

Now that I have the chance to see the fully hand, I expect that the auction would go something like

 

 

1♣ - (P) - 2♦) - (2♥)

3♦ - (3♥) - 4♦ - P

 

If the opponents compete to 4♥, they MIGHT push us to 5♦, however, I suspect that its more likely that we'll defend 4♥ doubled. For example

 

 

1♣ - (P) - 2♦) - (2♥)

3♦ - (4♥) - X - All Pass

 

This hand may make 5♦, but I don't think that we can bid it.

[rbforster]

I thought 1♥ was about right, given the Vul and flaws as a preempt. I disagreed much more with the "limit raise" by West, with his soft 9 count and a stiff. I don't go looking for games opposite a strong club very often, and I think a raise to 2♥ or 3♥ is probably sufficient. East doesn't have to have a good hand.

[straube]

Now that I have the chance to see the fully hand, I expect that the auction would go something like

 

 

1♣ - (P) - 2♦) - (2♥)

3♦ - (3♥) - 4♦ - P

 

If the opponents compete to 4♥, they MIGHT push us to 5♦, however, I suspect that its more likely that we'll defend 4♥ doubled. For example

 

 

1♣ - (P) - 2♦) - (2♥)

3♦ - (4♥) - X - All Pass

 

This hand may make 5♦, but I don't think that we can bid it.

 

Richard, would you help with the 0-7 problem? Would you preempt 2H as East over 1C P 1D ?

[the_clown]

Precision

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-pass-2♣

2♠-2N

3♦-pass

[Zelandakh]

Precision

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-pass-2♣

West bids 3♥ here, not 2♣.

[Hilver]

OK, now the full deal.

 

 

 

.............T9874

.............void

.............AJ652

.............T84

KQ52.......................AJ3

J985........................AT7432

T..............................984

K632........................9

.............6

.............KQ6

.............KQ73

.............AQJ75

 

spoiler]

 

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

 

1♣ - (p) - 1♦ - (1♥)

2♣ - (2♥/3♣) - double

 

Over South's 2♣ West will definitely bid 2♥ or 3♣. North knows there is a fit in clubs, but South may also hold a four card spades. Moreover North has some values. So North will undoubtly make a double over Wests bid, not a penalty double but negative.

 

Jan

[relknes]

I know that some Easts would preempt 2♥ here, but to me the hand is 1 loser too many to do so when red (I use the rule of 2 and 3, not 2-3-4), so I vote 1♥.

I also think that West's hand is worth the 3♣ cuebid. With 4 cards in the enemy suit, partner is likey to be short in clubs, and the shortness in diamonds is likely to be working. The ♣K is well placed over the strong hand, so doesn't lose quite as mich of its value oposite partner's presumed shortness, though it still isn't full value. All in all, I would say that the hand is worth about 11 and 1/2 support points (9 HCP, 3 points for the singleton with 4 card support, but discounting half a point for the ♣K). Others will value it differently, I am sure.

Anyways, long way of saying that I agree with the auction that was posted for the opponents.

[straube]

I know that some Easts would preempt 2♥ here, but to me the hand is 1 loser too many to do so when red (I use the rule of 2 and 3, not 2-3-4), so I vote 1♥.

I also think that West's hand is worth the 3♣ cuebid. With 4 cards in the enemy suit, partner is likey to be short in clubs, and the shortness in diamonds is likely to be working. The ♣K is well placed over the strong hand, so doesn't lose quite as mich of its value oposite partner's presumed shortness, though it still isn't full value. All in all, I would say that the hand is worth about 11 and 1/2 support points (9 HCP, 3 points for the singleton with 4 card support, but discounting half a point for the ♣K). Others will value it differently, I am sure.

Anyways, long way of saying that I agree with the auction that was posted for the opponents.

 

I'd like to make an executive decision so we face the same circumstances. I've asked help in another forum and mostly got 2H action for each auction, but I've also got a lot of support for mere 1H overcalls over 1D.

 

So I'm asking folks to submit auctions for 1H overcalls after a 1D response...and West cues in support at the 3-level whereas over 1H responses or Zelandah's 1S response or over Moscito's response, we get a 2H bid and a 4H advance by West.

 

Can folks live with that? Please let me know. I'm not sure it's right but we could have a lot of discussion over something that winds up being a judgment call.

[antonylee]

Interestingly I think it is more likely that I get this one right after the extra preemption of 1♦ (P) 1♠ (2♥) P (4♥): this time responder did not have the time to show diamonds at low level so taking insurance in 5♦ looks right (especially with at least 19 total tricks, except opposite a 1=4=4=4 exactly).

 

Edit: "right" modulo the fact that even my double dummy play is ridiculously bad :)

Here are the possible auctions I see, depending on the opponents' choices:

 

1♦ 1♠ (2♥) P (4♥) 5♦

1♦ 1♠ (2♥) P (3♣) 3♦ (3♥) P (P) X

 

Anyone to save me and tell me it's only poor judgement that makes me miss 4♥X in the first auction and 4♦ in the second one?

[nige1]

#24. OK, now the full deal.

Jasmine ♣

West_ ♠ KQ52 ♥ J985 ♦ T ♣ K632: __ _P 3♥

North ♠ T9874 ♥- ♦ AJ652 ♣ T84: __ 2♥ 4♦

East_ ♠ AJ3 ♥ AT7432 ♦ 984 ♣ 9: __ _X AP

South ♠ 6 ♥ KQ6 ♦ KQ73 ♣ AQJ75: 1♣ 3♣

• 1♣ = Art, 16+
• 2♥ = Art, Weak 2-suiter, not ♥.
• 3♣ = Pass/correct.
• 4♦ = Nat (Improved by opener's lack of interest in ♠).

Marks, IMO 5♦ = 10. 6♦ = 9. 4♦/(4♥X) = 8. 3♣ = 7. 4♣ = 6. (3♥) = 5, (3♥X) = 3.

[sieong]

IMprecision:

 

1♣ (P) 1♥ (2♥) (strong; 2-6RP, 5+hcp, 4+♠)

P (4♥) X (P) (typically min with no fit. We rarely trap-pass here, but responder usually reopens on any excuse; takeout)

P

 

This type of auctions is primarily judgment. I think the double by responder is fairly clear. Whether opener should convert the double to penalty is more debatable. I think it rates to be right with singleton ♠ and KQx ♥, but a few years ago, I would have considered converting 3♥X with the same hand, yet experience suggests it is usually wrong. If opener decides to take it out, he will bid 4N pick a minor. I think it is difficult to separate the evaluation of system merits and judgment in 1♣ competitive auctions.

 

FWIW, I think there is more to gain for West to preempt over an artificial bid that describes strength but not shape. I would likely bid 2♥ over an artificial 1♦ response, but may choose to pass over the Moscito semi-positive 2♦ response. I would probably bid 2♥ over IMprecision's 1♥ response since the shape is still vague.

[straube]

 

 

FWIW, I think there is more to gain for West to preempt over an artificial bid that describes strength but not shape. I would likely bid 2♥ over an artificial 1♦ response, but may choose to pass over the Moscito semi-positive 2♦ response. I would probably bid 2♥ over IMprecision's 1♥ response since the shape is still vague.

 

That makes sense. Would you like to be a resource for future deals that require defensive decisions? You could let Adam bid those hands so he could have the whole measure of the problem. Maybe others would like to volunteer as well?

[sieong]

That makes sense. Would you like to be a resource for future deals that require defensive decisions? You could let Adam bid those hands so he could have the whole measure of the problem. Maybe others would like to volunteer as well?

 

I will be happy to help, but generally I reply quite slowly. But feel free to include me in the discussion if it helps.

[jack502]

That makes sense. Would you like to be a resource for future deals that require defensive decisions? You could let Adam bid those hands so he could have the whole measure of the problem. Maybe others would like to volunteer as well?

 

 

 

Just let me know if you want Jacks interference. I can only do jacks moscito or standard precision being overcalled though probably I can't do forcing pass or any very odd opening bids as unfortunately you can't tell jack what a bid means just alter his cc to something he has already. Qplus can be told what bids mean but not sure it is very useful.

[straube]

.............T9874

.............void

.............AJ652

.............T84

KQ52.......................AJ3

J985........................AT7432

T..............................984

K632........................9

.............6

.............KQ6

.............KQ73

.............AQJ75

 

SCREAM bids this...

 

1C-1H (2H) 16+, 2-4 QPs

P (4H) dbl P takeout

[straube]

I've started to post outcomes. I think we need some discussion here. For example, the way I set up the defense, I see IMprecision, Moscito and my own SCREAM getting to 4H doubled which I think is better than 4D making.

This could be bias on my part though I'm trying pretty hard to avoid this. Part of my bias is that I don't really favor doubling an artificial bid at the 1-level for penalty as a hand that can defend this contract ought to be able to bid at the 2-level. I think I'd use double as something else...like CRASH against a nebulous 1H bid or takeout of spades if 1H showed spades. I also think that the votes for 1H and 2H overcalls by East are split and that's really the key to deciding how high the opponents will compete. I suppose we could throw out this hand or we could ask jack502 to decide the matter (opposite 1C-1D as 0-7). Or we could abide by how I set up the problem. What do others think?

 

If I haven't posted your outcome, please make sure you have a final outcome and complete auction and then send me a message or post me a reminder.

 

If you feel that the outcomes should be adjusted for various reasons, please start a discussion on that and let us know why you feel that way.

[Zelandakh]

I'd like to make an executive decision so we face the same circumstances. I've asked help in another forum and mostly got 2H action for each auction, but I've also got a lot of support for mere 1H overcalls over 1D.

 

So I'm asking folks to submit auctions for 1H overcalls after a 1D response...and West cues in support at the 3-level whereas over 1H responses or Zelandah's 1S response or over Moscito's response, we get a 2H bid and a 4H advance by West.

 

Can folks live with that? Please let me know. I'm not sure it's right but we could have a lot of discussion over something that winds up being a judgment call.

I can live with it but I am quite sure it is not right. East, who is supposedly a good player, bids aggressively after a natural, limited opener and a natural, limited response but conservatively over a strong club opening and artificial response. Even worse, their partner West makes a limit raise opposite an overcall that could be done for nuisance value but makes a preemptive raise to game opposite an overcall based on values.

 

We should publish this sort of bidding - perhaps we can set theory back 50 years. It makes me think of a Twilight Zone episode where we have Meckwell at our table but at every other table in the room are sitting clones of Mrs Guggenheim and her shy sister. Perhaps next round we will get Justin and Bob while the Guggenheims shuffle between the other tables. Hopefully Justin can bring some sense to the E-W bidding.

 

In fact, now you know how the systems being posted, I think you should be able to construct the various scenarios in advance and perhaps send PMs to a selection of the posters playing at a reasonably high level (Justin, Mike, Andy, Frances, Ben, Han, PhilKing, et al) to get some idea of what would be bid. No doubt some of them are too busy (fred almost certainly) or would not like to participate but I daresay you can find enough to get useful feedback.

 

Anyway, it is obvious that I will reach 5♦(S) on the suggested E-W bidding.

 

1♦ = (9)10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal

... - 1♠ = 4+ spades, weak, non-forcing

(2♥)

3♣ = nat, max

(4♥)

... - 5♦

 

Sadly, with Meckwell defending (and my declarer play) I am probably going one off. "Sorry partner."

[straube]

I can live with it but I am quite sure it is not right. East, who is supposedly a good player, bids aggressively after a natural, limited opener and a natural, limited response but conservatively over a strong club opening and artificial response. Even worse, their partner West makes a limit raise opposite an overcall that could be done for nuisance value but makes a preemptive raise to game opposite an overcall based on values.

 

We should publish this sort of bidding - perhaps we can set theory back 50 years. It makes me think of a Twilight Zone episode where we have Meckwell at our table but at every other table in the room are sitting clones of Mrs Guggenheim and her shy sister. Perhaps next round we will get Justin and Bob while the Guggenheims shuffle between the other tables. Hopefully Justin can bring some sense to the E-W bidding.

 

In fact, now you know how the systems being posted, I think you should be able to construct the various scenarios in advance and perhaps send PMs to a selection of the posters playing at a reasonably high level (Justin, Mike, Andy, Frances, Ben, Han, PhilKing, et al) to get some idea of what would be bid. No doubt some of them are too busy (fred almost certainly) or would not like to participate but I daresay you can find enough to get useful feedback.

 

Anyway, it is obvious that I will reach 5♦(S) on the suggested E-W bidding.

 

1♦ = (9)10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal

... - 1♠ = 4+ spades, weak, non-forcing

(2♥)

3♣ = nat, max

(4♥)

... - 5♦

 

Sadly, with Meckwell defending (and my declarer play) I am probably going one off. "Sorry partner."

 

Well, I think Han suggested a 2H bid over every response...including yours...so perhaps we should go with that. Let's let everyone rewrite their auction for that. 2H and I think their partner will raise to 4H (or is their disagreement on that as well?) Apologies to all. I think I'll get an expert opinion next time before posting such a difficult problem.

[JLOGIC]

1C (p) 1D (2H) (strong, 0-7)

P (4H) X AP

[relknes]

.............T9874

.............void

.............AJ652

.............T84

KQ52.......................AJ3

J985........................AT7432

T..............................984

K632........................9

.............6

.............KQ6

.............KQ73

.............AQJ75

 

If East jump overcalls with 2♥, the auction will go:

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (2♥)

3♣ - (4♥) - X

 

And now South has a tough decision. The double here is takeout (5-5 in the unbid suits with 8+ support points for either suit),as opposed to the double of the cuebid which allowed North to show club support, but it can be passed at the 4 level.

So South can visualize the North hand as 5-1-5-2, 5-0-5-3, or a hand theat is 6-5 in the pointed suits (the 5-1-5-2 hand is less likely based on the opponent's bidding). Do they leave the double in for penalties, or bid 5♦ hoping partner dosn't have 5 spades to the KJ or something where we could be down off the top? I lean toward taking it out, I think, but I might very well make a different decision on a different day. If partner does have the ♦A or ♠A, we might set them severely if the opponents are at all mirrored in distribution, but then again those are the same cases we are making 5♦. With a lot of wasted values in spades, we might set them one or two while 5♦ goes down, but there is always the off chance they make it... so I think I bid 5♦.

[straube]

I'm thinking of putting 4HX down for everyone except jack502 and Pass2000. jack502 rebids 3N and I'm not sure what a forcing pass leads to after a 2H preempt and a 4H raise.

 

What I'm trying to do is to leave out personal judgment here and only assign different outcomes due to system differences. I would think Pass2000 and Moscito would have the highest chance for deviation on this hand.

 

So I'd like to hear if others are comfortable with this...and I'd like to see an auction for Pass2000 with the condition we've set of East preempting or bidding 2H and West raising to 4H.

[relknes]

I am fine with that.

[Free]

4♥x for me as well