inquiry Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Misho is teaching me transfer preempts from 2NT to 3D. The bid shows either the next suit (weak), of the bid suit and one of the other suits (not the transfer suit) and STRONG, 4 losers or less. When you open 2NT, you show hearts as one of the bid suit.. 2NT-P-3C-Pass = preempt in clubs3D = hearts and diamonds3S = spades and hearts3H = spades and hearts, much better hearts3NT = hearts and diamonds, better diamonds, GF value4D = Big Heart and diamond hand4H = big spade/heart hand, better hearts4S = big spade/heart hand, probably 2 losers 3C - P - 3D PAss = ok diamonds weak3H = clubs and hearts3S = clubs and spades3NT = clubs and3D - P - 3H PAss = got it weak with hearts3S = diamonds and spades3NT = diamonds and clubs4 level bids, stronger two suitersComments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 He got the strong idea from me :) Works quite fine, you're able to show big 55+ hands without much troubles, and the disadvantages of preempting in transfer are very small! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 I must admit that I really dislike this. It hinders you being able to bounce the auction for a start. Also against good opponents you are giving them 3 bites at the cherryeg (3C) Now a good pair will have meanings for X 3D and pass followed by a X of the opp's 3D when it comes back. The only real advantage could be if responder is weak with C and passes, but then you are possibly losing out on YOUR strong option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 I must admit that I really dislike this. It hinders you being able to bounce the auction for a start. Also against good opponents you are giving them 3 bites at the cherryeg (3C) Now a good pair will have meanings for X 3D and pass followed by a X of the opp's 3D when it comes back. The only real advantage could be if responder is weak with C and passes, but then you are possibly losing out on YOUR strong option. Well, I have never played transfer preempts, primarily due to the logic you quote. This new spin (to me, at least) seems like it might be worth looking into. To start off, only three bids are transfer preempts, not all bids (2N, 3C, & 3D). Second, since the hand bidding this can be quite strong, bidding by the opponents can be fraught with more danger (that is, weak hands are not the only option). Misho has a lot of good ideas, and few clunkers (I have a lot of clunkers and few good ones). I have to try things out to see how I like them (like taking a car for test drive). I have been looking at this bid from a two hand standpoint, and it looks pretty good, especially with the big hands. This is further enhanced when you don;t open one of these bids but then show a "big" two suits by the more natural and normal auction. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hum... + Allows to put in big hands.- But do you really want to start bidding big hands at the 3+ level? + Puts strong hand to declare- But when you open a preempt, you're already putting your money it's the OPPS, not you, who has the hand. + The big hands makes it more risky for opps to enter the bidding.- But it also leaves them with more opportunities and bids to enter the fray.- Also, the weak variant is probably less than 5%. - > + Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hum... + Allows to put in big hands.- But do you really want to start bidding big hands at the 3+ level?~snip~ Tell me with what (semi-)natural system you can show a GF hand with at least 5-5 (not 5-4 or 6-4) in 2 known suits below the 3-level! I challenge you :) We all know the disadvantages of preempting in transfer, but look at preempting in general:- after a 3X preempt, most people end up in a pretty right contract- giving away 2 extra bids gives them obviously more methods to find that right contract :) - if you are allowed to play your 3X contract, then you might as well let it play by a completely unknown hand (so transfer) Imo, playing transfer preempts only makes sense if you include strong options in them. Otherwise you throw away an opening bid (so you can transfer) and you don't get anything back. Strong 55+ hands have been a big problem (we've seen that 100s of times on this forum btw) so if you include these, you'll be better off when one comes around. I've been playing something similar for a few years with my father, also including 55+ GF hands, and I must say they helped us a lot from time to time (we are able to show our exact shape ofcourse, which helps for slam :) ).Once my partner also had a 5-5, but not especially strong, and opps intervene. They got hung for a number ofcourse, since my partner 'knew' I had 55+ in the other suits and we were in a misfit auction :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Well, here are some example hands from BBO with two suiters that would be opened 2NT to 3♦. These hands will probalby not convince anyone to consider this method, but at least they will give you an idea of what Misho has in mind. I left out the preemptive hands. Remember the rules with the strong hands. 1) you will have the suit you bid (2NT shows ♥).2) you will not have the transfer suit3) Extra values shown with rebids above 3NT 4) Minimum big two suiter is 5-5 with four losers or less Let me know what you think and where the glaring errors are. [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv][hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa2ht8dqt974ckj87&w=sqj943hakj762dcaq&e=skt76hq93dj86ct93&s=s85h54dak532c6542]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest East2N - 3C3S - 5S <<--- ♥Q and ♠K working, partner has four losers at most, invite6S - Pass 6♠ by WEST is cold, by east is donw on club lead. 6♥ will not make. Most who made it to 6♠ played from wrong side, and most who made it to slam played in hearts going down.[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 It hinders you being able to bounce the auction for a start. Actually, you can bounce the auction if you like. For instance, if your parnter bids 2NT and you ahve ♣ and ♥, you can bounce clubs.... If he bids 3♦ and you ahve diamonds and spades you can bounce the auction.. in fact, anytime you fit for the suit your partner bid (or showed) you can bounce..I will have to think about what a bounce shows...besides the sure fit. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Why limit yourself to 2 possible meanings for a bid? Take a look at Purple Twos for a system of 2-level and 3-level bids where most of thetwo level bids show 5+ hand types, typically:- strong single suiter in one suit- weak single suiter in a different suit- strong two suiter with one anchor suit- weak two suiter with one ancher suit- big balanced NT range Ok. It is a bit crazy but super-fun to play. It also uses 1-under transferpreempts. It does give away an extra bid to opps but in many cases partnergets to declarer and right-side the contract. Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJNeill Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hi all,I think, if in Purple Twos, one opens 3S, it doesn't right-side an eventual 4S contract. Thanks,Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 No system can right-side every contract. Likewise, no system can prevent your partner from messing it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Well speaking of that, I have a free 3♥ bid playing misho's way (3♦ is the weak preempt in hearts). So the question becomes what would 3♥ opening bid mean. Minor preempt so that 4♣ and 4♦ can be naymayts? Solid minor to stear gambling 3NT into partener's hand? Misho told me what he thought it should be, but at the time I was dealing with what the other bids meant, so I pretty much let it slip in one eye and out the other (it is somewhere in my chat log however).... but I got the feeling this bid was still up for grabs. If anyone has any ideas on what would make sense if you played 2NT/3C/3D as I described, I would love to hear from you. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Nobody's commented on the hands, so I guess I can walk in where angels... [hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa5hkq954dakqt4cq&w=s4hatd73cat986532&e=sk8732h76d9862ck4&s=sqjt96hj832dj5cj7]399|300|Scoring: IMP2N - 3C4D - 4H <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak) Pass <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher. [/hv] 2N-p-3C-5C? West knows what 2NT is - it's 5-5 strong, H+another. There just aren't enough clubs for it to be the weak hand. So 5C now makes opener wonder what responder's relay is and responder knows opener is strong with hearts, but what's the other suit? And hey, 5C might actually make (swap the SK for either red-suit K and -1) [hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa5hkq954dakqt4cq&w=s4hatd73cat986532&e=sk8732h76d9862ck4&s=sqjt96hj832dj5cj7]399|300|Scoring: IMP2N - 3C4D - 4H <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak) Pass <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher. [/hv] Yep, here I'm going to take my lumps in spades. But... [hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa5hkq954dakqt4cq&w=s4hatd73cat986532&e=sk8732h76d9862ck4&s=sqjt96hj832dj5cj7]399|300|Scoring: IMP2N - 3C4D - 4H <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak) Pass <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher. [/hv] Similarly, 3D-3H; 3NT (4S) 5S; (6H) and they lose one trick in each suit. I realize that 800 is still better than 2C+5, or even 3NT+3, but it isn't 2140 (or even 1390). [hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa5hkq954dakqt4cq&w=s4hatd73cat986532&e=sk8732h76d9862ck4&s=sqjt96hj832dj5cj7]399|300|Scoring: IMP2N - 3C4D - 4H <<--- 4D = 3 losers, diamonds and ♥'s (hearts promised by 2NT if not weak) Pass <<--- how does WEST compete over 3♣? He may bid 5♣ now, but you will not take the push to 5♥. Only one pair played 4♥ and many, many played 5♥ and higher. [/hv] At equal, we're not going to double 5C, one really wants the heart lead. But swap the A and a small heart, and 7C is a good save. Although the difference between 800 and 920 isn't anything to write home about... I guess what these are showing is that it's often right to look for a save, especially at favourable, as soon as you know opener is strong. Which makes sense, really; if there's a slam in the offing, bids that quickly show 5-5 will find them (and others won't) but our fit will frequently take lotsmore tricks, too. I like the idea, though; especially because the double had better mean something important, as pass is pass/correct, and redouble "partner I think you can make this even with the bad break, and they have nowhere to run to. If you happen to have the strong hand, we'd better ace-hunt, bexause this is just a question of 6 or 7 in your other suit..." Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Mycroft, you have a point that opening these hands might give info to opps before we get our rebid or our partner gets into the auction. That's why we can use both forcing pass and Dbl to specify our suits. Look at your first example: there you can easily Pass with D and Dbl with S. 2nd example: East has a clear Dbl: if partner has ♣ he can pass, if he doesn't have them, he can show his second suit, they always have a fit! Btw, I would never open the first example Ben gives as a GF 2-suiter, because my ♠s are too weak. This however is a matter of style: we accept maximum 1 loser in each of the suits, but not 2 losers in 1 of the suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Mycroft, you have a point that opening these hands might give info to opps before we get our rebid or our partner gets into the auction. That's why we can use both forcing pass and Dbl to specify our suits. Look at your first example: there you can easily Pass with D and Dbl with S. 2nd example: East has a clear Dbl: if partner has ♣ he can pass, if he doesn't have them, he can show his second suit, they always have a fit! Btw, I would never open the first example Ben gives as a GF 2-suiter, because my ♠s are too weak. This however is a matter of style: we accept maximum 1 loser in each of the suits, but not 2 losers in 1 of the suits. Misho suggest the bid is two suiter, 4 losers or less.. is not true game force..... you can stop at three level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mila85 Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 I like the idea of transfer preempts but I don't like that the strong two suiter is without transfered suit. xxxxxxKxxxxKxAfter normal 3d opening (with or without overcall) I simply bid 5d. I think that this is one of biggest advantages of preempts.If your partner opens 3c (preempt in diamonds or two suiter with clubs) you can't bid 5d. Partner will very often have strong club-heard two suiter.If 3c opening promisses diamonds I can effectively preempt by 5d. Opener can with strong hand bid his other suit - 6d shoud be ok... The other thing I don't like is that with club preempt you open 2nt.AxxxKxxAxxQxxAfter normal 3c opening (7cards, two top honours) I bid 100% 3nt.After 2nt opening 3nt depends on position of heard ace.Right-side 3nt is much more useful that right-side 3c. What do you think about this scheme?(The main idea is from Garozzo's Ambra) 2c:23+bal or GF without 5c major2d:heards, weak two or strong2h:same with spades2s:club preempt or strong two suiter with clubs2nt:21-22 BAL3c:good diamond preempt or strong two suiter with diamonds3d:bad diamond preempt3h+:normal 2s-2nt is inv - bid 3nt with two top honours After2h-2s/pass..weak two2nt....strong two (3c,3d,3h show shortness-inv+)3c,d,h..5-4 GF3s.......very very good spades, GF3NT.....25+BAL 5s332 After2d-2h2s......5+-4 GF3s......5+-5+ GFother as after 2h-2s After 2c2d....relay2h....5+spades2s.....5+heards2nt,3c...6+minor, transfer3d+......??? 2c-2d:2h.....5+m-4h or 4441 with black singleton or 5440.2s......5+m-4s or 4441 with red singleton2nt.....23-24 BAL3m.....6+cards, without 4c M, GF3M......??3nt......25+BAL, without 5c M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 This is how I've played GF 2-suiters for a long time: 2NT = 55+ ♦-♣, weak or GF3♣ = preempt ♦ or GF 55+ ♥ and another3♦ = preempt ♥ or GF 55+ ♠ and a minor We had some hands where we wanted to blast into high contracts, and if we did it when partner had a 55+ GF hand, it gave us several bad scores. So we started to think of other structures, but we haven't changed anything eventually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 I like the idea of transfer preempts but I don't like that the strong two suiter is without transfered suit. xxxxxxKxxxxKxAfter normal 3d opening (with or without overcall) I simply bid 5d. I think that this is one of biggest advantages of preempts.If your partner opens 3c (preempt in diamonds or two suiter with clubs) you can't bid 5d. Partner will very often have strong club-heard two suiter. Well, your 5♦ bid with this hand is fine... but playing 3♣ misho's way gives you alternative ways to raise, you can bid any other suit with that suit and a raise in partner's presumed minor suit. Sort of like after a raptor 1NT overcall, where you jump in one of the two possible majors when you fit for the known minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 After trying misho's transfer preempts, we have decided we would like to keep 2NT as balanced big hand. We have modified the bidding so that 3C/3D/3H are the transfer preempts. Now 3S shows any solid suit, and 3NT shows a preempt to four of a minor (not solid suit). When we open 3C, it is either weak with diamonds, or any strong two suiter short in diamonds A 3D opening is either weak with hearts, or any strong two suiter with diamonds and a black suit. A 3H opening bid is either spades or a strong heart/diamond two suiter. We use opener rebids at the three and four level to separate as to how strong the bid is (how many losers). For instance, 3C-3D (forced)-3H = major two suiter, 4 losers3S = spades and clubs, 4 losers3NT = hearts and clubs (non-touching), 4 losers4C = clubs and hearts, 3 losers4H = hearts and spades 3 losers4S = spades and clubs, 2 losersetcHere is a difficult hand that only one pair found the laydown 6♦ contract on, after opening a strong two clubs. IMP-1 tankdriver Dlr: East Board 15709 S 9872 Vul: E-W H 763 SIBELCANAN D QT76 baron_35 S AQJ6 C J4 S T543 H JT842 H KQ9 D 52 gezgin2000 D J3 C 72 S K C 9865 H A5 D AK984 C AKQT3 The transfer "preempt auction would be...3♦ 3♥4♣ 5♦6♦ Pass Four clubs shows ♦ and ♣ and three losers, five diamonds shows at least one sure cover card and ♦ fit, 4NT over 4♣ would have shown ♣ shortness and be slam try if short club is worht two cover cards, 4♠ over 4♣ would have asked for opener to show best suit, and 4♥ over 4NT would have shown ♦ shortness and slam try if short diamond is two cover cards. So 5♦ shows marked preference for ♦ and one absolute sure cover card. 6♦ with the "solid" clubs facing two or three clubs and longer diamonds seems excellent shot. Counting on 5♣ and 5♦ a heart and a heart ruff, or maybe 5♦, 4♣ a ♥ and a ♣ and ♥ ruff. OR if necessary, a club hook of jack (or fall of jack). As you can see, we have harneshed some of the off suit and 4NT bids to explore quality of cover cards. We can still ask for keycards, consider this auction from bidding session.... [hv=w=sakqtxhaxdacajxxx&e=sxhxxxdxxcktxxxxx]266|100|[/hv] 3♣ - 3♦4♠ - 4NT5♦ - 5♠5NT- 7♣Pass 3C = preempt in diamonds or strong two suiter short in diamonds3D = signoff opposite diamond preempt3S = black two suiter, three losers 4NT = slam if my short spade is worth two cover cards5D = RKCB, grand slam try5S = one key card5NT = trump queen?7C = more than enough clubs to make up for missing queen These two hands, slam is reached (and grand slam in one case) despite the shortage not working out exactly as planned. In the first case, you take advantage of the shortage question not being asked. In the second, WEST counts tricks again based upon the quality of the offered suit. Yes he could run into a partner with five hearts and four clubs, so pitches do no good. This is still a work in progress... we are looking for ideas on how to improve the auctions. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Question for Inquiry: since you started playing these transfer preempts, how many times have they come up in actual play (not in bidding practice or times you kibitzed other pairs)? Of these, how many were the "strong two suiter" variety? From your description, it seems clear that you will frequently win when opener has the strong two suiter, but transfer preempts in general tend to lose on the weak hands because: (1) opponents have more opportunities to bid (2) responder can't always confidently raise the preempt. It seems to me that the weak hands will be MUCH more frequent than the strong ones, so you are accepting frequent losses on the preempt hands in order to have the occasional win on strong hands. Sure you can produce any number of two-suited monsters where the transfer preempt treatment is one of the few ways to get to slam, but it seems like I only hold such a hand once every few thousand boards, whereas "weak three" preempts happen (well in some suit) about once every 40-50 boards. -- Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Question for Inquiry: since you started playing these transfer preempts, how many times have they come up in actual play (not in bidding practice or times you kibitzed other pairs)? Of these, how many were the "strong two suiter" variety? From your description, it seems clear that you will frequently win when opener has the strong two suiter, but transfer preempts in general tend to lose on the weak hands because: (1) opponents have more opportunities to bid (2) responder can't always confidently raise the preempt. It seems to me that the weak hands will be MUCH more frequent than the strong ones, so you are accepting frequent losses on the preempt hands in order to have the occasional win on strong hands. Sure you can produce any number of two-suited monsters where the transfer preempt treatment is one of the few ways to get to slam, but it seems like I only hold such a hand once every few thousand boards, whereas "weak three" preempts happen (well in some suit) about once every 40-50 boards. -- Adam They come up fairly frequently, because I preempt a lot. The strong variety comes us less often. Let me show a strong version disaster from a TOP FLIGHT event this very week. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=s9ht42daq73caj862&w=sakt754hakq75d6c3&e=s32hj9dt9842ck974&s=sqj86h863dkj5cqt5]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - Pass Pass 3♣! Pass 3♦! Pass 4♥ Pass 6♣ Pass 6♠ Dbl Pass Pass Pass [/hv] What happened here is i responded to my partner's auction as if we were using the old rules (3♣ then 4♥ shows 3 losers or less with hearts and clubs), my partner was using correctly the new version, where 4♥ showed major two suiter with both majors, 3 losers. If I had realized 4♥ was a major two suiter, I would have to make a decision, to play 4♥ or 4♠. Turns out 4♠ makes, 4♥ is probably down. But I imagined same kind of hand but with spade suit = club suit. At this point, we were at table 2 with four hands to play in a swiss movement. We were plus 22 imps before this hand (over 9 hands). Clearly we can make 5♣ (if spades and clubs switched), the question was might 6♣ make? I decided that 6♣ would make anytime 3NT makes and thought it was a good shot to get to table one.. true we would have been down one in 6♣ as well if the black suits were reversed. Several pairs did manage to get all the way to 1♠... but they beat me. We ended up in fourth place, out of 40 in this event despite the nearly 15 imp disaster on this one... and it was all my fault. I will pull up some of the more succeful hands if you like, but let me tell you about a few... Partner opened 3NT showing minor preempt to 4, i passed with nothing not vul. We went down eight versus a slam for them. I opened 4C (naymats), parnter bid laydown 6H, We have also gotten to two games most people played at one level. Ok, that is not a lot, but i haven't played that many hands with misho since we started playing this, and we quickly dropped it, as i insist on 2NT being natural, and have only recently changed back. You do lose the ability to preempt with 3C with this method as well. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 I guess we should examine the plus and minuses of such bids. Big minuses of this transfer preempt starting at 3♣1) You can not preempt in clubs at three level (you could with multi 2D use 2S for this, but I don't) 2) If your partner has a heart preempt, you have trouble bumping it to the four level... where most tables would go 3H-P-4H (or even 5H), at your table, it will go 3D-P-3H, where you await the possible strong hand parnter holds. Of course, if you have diamonds, and willingness to play at the five level if he has the strong hand you can bump to 4♥ 3) If you use these bids on hands with 5530 distrubition strong, your fit in the three card suit is hard to find. 4) If you have scattered values in the short suit, you may end up in four of a minor when 3NT would be better A theoretical disadvantage is opponents might get in a preempt of their own against you before you show your suits. This has not been a problem yet. And if you do have a big two suiter, their bidding is not good for their health... if you ahve misfit, they are killed if not, you generally find your fit. Still those are some mean disadvantages. What do you get back in the tradeoff? 1) The ability to open a forcing bid with strong two suiters and still stop safely in 3 of major. 2) The ability to limit your one opening bids fairly soundly. For example, I play hands equavalant to acol 2 bids are tied up in my 2D and 2C opening bid, these 4 loser or better two suited bids in opening 3 transfer preempts. So my jump rebids and jump shifts are more narrowly defined by the inability to use one of these bids earlier. 3) No opportunity to get passed out in one of a minor or major with strong two suiter that might make lucky slam. 4) The descriptive second bid by opener defining minimum number of losers (4, 3, 2 and yes 1), and the bidding tricks whereby responder can ask if singleton in on of opener's suits is worth two cover cards. The minus are all related to disruptive bidding on opponents. This kind of bidding is important, but usually leads to small gains only if you take a sacrafice. The pluses lead to games and slams your way that might be hard to bid, and gives more clarity to your auctions when you open 1 of a suit and then jump in a new suit. This constructive bidding improvements can lead to some very large gains, especially if you bid a slam when half the field miss even game. Or after a 1 of a suit, then jump shift, your partner soft-pedals because he knows the really strong two suiters you would have started with a 3 level bid. It will be interesting to watch and see if this is a net plus or minus. Frequency is on the side of the inability to make full pressure preempts, higher scoring hands ( but less frequent) in on the side of the more constructive use of the 3 bids. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Question for Inquiry: since you started playing these transfer preempts, how many times have they come up in actual play (not in bidding practice or times you kibitzed other pairs)? Of these, how many were the "strong two suiter" variety? From your description, it seems clear that you will frequently win when opener has the strong two suiter, but transfer preempts in general tend to lose on the weak hands because: (1) opponents have more opportunities to bid (2) responder can't always confidently raise the preempt. It seems to me that the weak hands will be MUCH more frequent than the strong ones, so you are accepting frequent losses on the preempt hands in order to have the occasional win on strong hands. Sure you can produce any number of two-suited monsters where the transfer preempt treatment is one of the few ways to get to slam, but it seems like I only hold such a hand once every few thousand boards, whereas "weak three" preempts happen (well in some suit) about once every 40-50 boards. -- Adam I have investigated your question. The fewquency of these hands is about 0.7%. You will have slightly more, but someone will open or preempt before you get to bid. You said transfer preempt gives them more chance to compete. In actualitly it creates fewer chances, as they have to bid at the three level. It risk getting their partners overbidding if they do it too light. It takes away michaels and unusual 2NT, and it can lead to some juicy penalties if they and your big, especially if they do so beause they are short in your "transfer suit" as you will never hold that suit. We still raise the preempt. All you need is a sure trick in one of the potential suits opener can hold. Let me show you a couple of hands that you played (you may have held any of the four hands). ========================================C:\BRBR\awm.05.IMP-4.29665.txtProduced by BRidgeBRowser on 3/29/2005========================================IMP-4 Dlr: East Board S AKQ94 Vul: N-S H AT D A S 7532 C AJ876 S J86 H K764 H J985 D KJT72 D Q6543 C S T C Q H Q32 D 98 C KT95432 Auction at table... there is a way to find 7C This hand was played Jan 28, 2004 West North East South Pass Pass Pass 2C Pass 2D! Pass 2S Pass 3C Pass 4C Pass 5C Pass Pass Pass 1. game force Opening lead: D4 Result: Made 7Score: 640 ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 6CXX N D3 --------- 13 2230 9.87 2 7N N D3 v--------- 13 2220 9.60 3 7C N D4 --------- 13 2140 8.47 4 7C S S7 --------- 13 2140 8.47 5 7C S S5 --------- 13 2140 8.47 6 7C N D3 --------- 13 2140 8.47 7 6SX N CQ --------- 12 1660 0.60 8 6N N D4 --------- 13 1470 -3.00 9 6N N D4 --------- 13 1470 -3.00 10 6S N D4 --------- 1460 -3.00 11 6C N D3 --------- 13 1390 -4.33 12 6C N HJ --------- 1390 -4.33 13 6C S S7 --------- 13 1390 -4.33 14 6C N D4 --------- 13 1390 -4.33 15 5C N D4 --------- 13 640 -13.80 16 5C N S6 --------- 640 -13.80 C:\BRBR\awm.05.IMP-4.29672.txtProduced by BRidgeBRowser on 3/29/2005========================================IMP-4 Dlr: North Board 2 S KQ643 Vul: N-S H QJ92 D 97 S 872 C J5 S H 64 H AK873 D KT853 D A6 C Q86 S AJT95 C AKT742 H T5 D QJ42 C 93 West North East South Pass 1C 1S Pass 4S 5C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HT Result: Made 6Score: -420 This was was played on jan 26, 2005 ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 3S E C9 C:\BRBR\awm.05.IMP-4.29672.txtProduced by BRidgeBRowser on 3/29/2005========================================IMP-4 Dlr: North Board 2 S KQ643 Vul: N-S H QJ92 D 97 S 872 C J5 S H 64 H AK873 D KT853 D A6 C Q86 S AJT95 C AKT742 H T5 D QJ42 C 93 West North East South Pass 1C 1S Pass 4S 5C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HT Result: Made 6Score: -420 ======================================= # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts ======================================= 1 3S E C9 cmiycdk 5 200 11.80 2 1H E DQ franjane 9 -140 6.33 3 3C E SA swarriors12 -170 5.60 4 4C E DQ Ratok 12 -170 5.60 5 4C E SA aher11 12 -170 5.60 6 4C E DQ dchuprich13 -190 5.20 7 5C E DQ bluester 12 -420 0.53 8 5C E SA mustafa0212 -420 0.53 9 5C E HT seafish 12 -420 0.53 10 5C E DQ Doug J 12 -420 0.53 11 5C E C9 jojogran 13 -440 -0.13 12 4HX E DQ soho10 11 -690 -5.13 13 5CX E DQ elleneski13 -750 -6.07 14 6C E SA ragukrish13 -940 -9.33 15 6C E SA rozi 13 -940 -9.33 16 6CX E SA rom49 13 -1190 -12.27 BTW, finding such hands (even if not by specific player) is piece of cake with bridgebrowser. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 My point about the opponents bidding was that opponents have more chances when you have the weak variety of hand. Suppose you open 3♣ showing diamonds or various strong hands: Opponent in direct seat can double the 3♣, bid directly, or pass and then balance later. A simple treatment would be to play double as showing 15+, normally a strong notrump hand with at least some values in clubs, a direct bid as being on the weak side (not junk, but not super-sound). Passing and then bidding later is relatively safe with the strong hand because it is unlikely LHO can bump the preempt (since he cannot know partner has a preempt). Opponent in fourth seat will often be bidding over 3♦ when others might be bidding over 4♦ or 5♦, and also has the advantage of partner limiting his hand by failure to initial double. Lots of (more effective and complex) defenses to transfer preempts are out there -- the general theme is that you will lose when you open a transfer preempt with the weak hand. I should note that you gave only two examples. In at least one of the two cases, my side did not hold the strong two suiter (the first example, from over a year ago, I don't remember which hand I held and the browser doesn't show declarer's name). Now I don't play as many hands on BBO as some people do, but in the course of over a year it has to be well over a thousand hands. In contrast, I'm sure that I have personally opened a weak three bid a lot more than twice on BBO in the last year. I agree that the methods you describe will work well when opener has the strong two suiter. Acol twos also work great when opener has one. But the weak preemptive bids will be SO much more frequent, that even if the transfer preempt causes you to lose in one out of ten of them, you're probably coming out behind. I'm not eager to start playing a method that lets me find a tough-to-bid slam once a year or so, and gives me a half dozen bad scores on ordinary preempt boards in the same time period. Another interesting note -- Fantoni-Nunes system would seem to have no problems bidding these hands. Just open the one suit (natural forcing) and then jump in the other. Couldn't be simpler. Whereas the problems of standard methods, and precision club, are well-documented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 You said transfer preempt gives them more chance to compete. In actualitly it creates fewer chances, as they have to bid at the three level. huh? If you have a 3D opener and open 3D, they also have to bid at the three level. I dont understand this argument. You give them more ways to bid at the 3 level if you open a 3D opener with 3C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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