Zelandakh Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Classic Polish club:P-1♣!1♥-2♦! (natural; 18+ 3+♥, not two suited with only 3 hearts)3♦-3♠ (natural canapé; natural)4♠I am no PC expert but I think North should clearly bid 3NT over 3♠. Can South not even be something like 5224 here? Over 3NT, South has a difficult decision. 2♥ opening (in my actual partnership)2♥-2♠ (8-11 exactly 4♥ unbalanced and 0-3♠; the rest is natural for GCC compliance :))3♦-3♥3♠-4♠What is 3♠ here? It does not feel very natural to me to be supporting partner with a stuff after they showed support for my first bid suit (even with canape). Of course, if 3♠ is the equivalent of 4th suit forcing, denying club help, then this looks very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I am no PC expert but I think North should clearly bid 3NT over 3♠. Can South not even be something like 5224 here? Over 3NT, South has a difficult decision. What is 3♠ here? It does not feel very natural to me to be supporting partner with a stuff after they showed support for my first bid suit (even with canape). Of course, if 3♠ is the equivalent of 4th suit forcing, denying club help, then this looks very nice. I have the same questions as Zelandakh. Would you please explain your auctions? I don't see North supporting with a stiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I realize that even when I played "classic" Polish I wasn't playing it quite the way it was in the books... but when I played it 1C-1H-2D (almost) set hearts as trump, and wasn't something I would have done with 6 spades and 3 hearts. I can't help thinking something more like 1C-1H-2S-3D-3H would be the start in Polish-without-fancy-asking-bids world. (And then what the heck does north do?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I can't help thinking something more like 1C-1H-2S-3D-3H would be the start in Polish-without-fancy-asking-bids world. (And then what the heck does north do?)Bidding 3♠ on this auction would be a lot better since North already denied primary spade support and it essentially acts as a kind of grope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 2♥ opening (in my actual partnership)2♥-2♠ (8-11 exactly 4♥ unbalanced and 0-3♠; the rest is natural for GCC compliance :))3♦-3♥3♠-4♠ What is 3♠ here? It does not feel very natural to me to be supporting partner with a stuff after they showed support for my first bid suit (even with canape). Of course, if 3♠ is the equivalent of 4th suit forcing, denying club help, then this looks very nice. Of course there is no real definition of "natural" of course at that point of the auction; 3♠ is basically "I don't want to commit to either game (3N, 4♥, 4♠) and if you don't want to play in 3N then 4♠ should have some chances". So really some sort of 4SF I think (but playing it as a pure 4SF would run afoul of the GCC so well...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Of course there is no real definition of "natural" of course at that point of the auction; 3♠ is basically "I don't want to commit to either game (3N, 4♥, 4♠) and if you don't want to play in 3N then 4♠ should have some chances". So really some sort of 4SF I think (but playing it as a pure 4SF would run afoul of the GCC so well...). Pretty certain that everything goes in the second round of bidding. 3S can be as artificial as you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Classic Polish club:P-1♣!1♥-2♦! (natural; 18+ 3+♥, not two suited with only 3 hearts)3♦-3♠ (natural canapé; natural)4♠ I am no PC expert but I think North should clearly bid 3NT over 3♠. Can South not even be something like 5224 here? Over 3NT, South has a difficult decision. I realize that even when I played "classic" Polish I wasn't playing it quite the way it was in the books... but when I played it 1C-1H-2D (almost) set hearts as trump, and wasn't something I would have done with 6 spades and 3 hearts. I can't help thinking something more like 1C-1H-2S-3D-3H would be the start in Polish-without-fancy-asking-bids world. (And then what the heck does north do?) This structure comes from Jassem's WJ05 (translated in English by David Neill, you can find it on internet); he proposes three variants for 2♦ and the one I settled on is bubrotka (thinking about switching to odwyrtka right now). 2♦ promises 3+♥ (as a poster said once on r.g.b., bidding 2♦ without 3-card support is a "serious bridge crime" :-)) so 5224 is excluded. I also have the agreement with my partner that 2♦ can come from either a balanced (intending to bid NT or support), or a one-suited hand (intending to bid the suit or support) -- if two-suited, say 5314, you have to decide which suit to hide, because seemingly natural auctions such as 1♣-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣-... intending to give delayed support to partenr's first suit are canapé with 5+♣4♠ 15-17 (in this particular case) so you need to bid 2♠ first and then 3♣ later (or perhaps 3♥). These auctions aren't that nice so I decided that showing a strong hand and bypassing 2♦ basically gives up on finding a 3-5 fit. For this particular auction opener's 3♠ shows a 63xx (if 5314 he would probably make the practical bid of 3N at that point, and with 4-card support he would cheaply agree hearts) so responder can see that 4♠ will usually have more play than 3N given the club weakness. The full structure of bubrotka after 1♣-1M-2♦ is 2♥=7-10 4M; 2♠=11+ 4M; 2N=11+5M; 3m=9-11 4M5m; 3♥=7-10 5M unbal (3♠ and 3N ask); 3♠=7-10 5332; 3N=6322; 4x=splinter with 6M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Precision 1♦-1♠1NT-3♠ (GF we play ♠)3NT-4♦4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 So really some sort of 4SF I thinkIn this case I like the auction a lot. I do not see any problem in using the bid as a grope in a natural context. For this particular auction opener's 3♠ shows a 63xx (if 5314 he would probably make the practical bid of 3N at that point,Maybe this is true and you obviously have experience of the system. I looked up the notes at Dan Neill's site (one of my favourites) and this particular auction is not there, but similar ones say 5+ for 2♦ followed by a new suit. None of these were with spades though and I can this being an exception due to the space issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Maybe this is true and you obviously have experience of the system. I looked up the notes at Dan Neill's site (one of my favourites) and this particular auction is not there, but similar ones say 5+ for 2♦ followed by a new suit. None of these were with spades though and I can this being an exception due to the space issues.Then I should have a look at these notes I guess... I always played this as 6+; introducing a 5-card suit (especially spades) at the 3-level doesn't look optimal to me (but perhaps he knows better). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 3nt S for tosr 1♦-2♠ : 2+D, 10-15 unbal or 15-17 bal; Strong jump shift3♦-3nt : natural; suggest game If N passes we probably still play 3nt on an auction like:P-1♣ : <10 unbal or <12 bal; any 16+1♠-1nt : gf 8+ hcp, 2+ ctls, any 4432 or any 4333 or both reds; relay2♣-2♦ : both reds; relay2♥-2♠ : 4H, 5+D; relay2nt-3♣ : short S; relay3♦-3nt? (3♥-3nt-P?) : 1=4=5=3; to play (controls; 3; to play) Without knowing about stiff Q, it isn't clear that 4♠ is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qplus10 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 well I would have passed north but I thought i'd let it choose and it came up with the suprising 1♥(4+♥) 2♠(strong jump shift)3♦(so now it has shown 5+♥and 4+♦) 4♦4nt(rkcb ♦) 5♥6♦6♥6♠ It has had some pretty mad auctions. It is possible not much work has been done on the strong club options because they are disallowed in the world computer championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack502 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 1♦1♥1nt 2♣2♦2♥2♠3nt 1♦= 4+ hearts can be canape1♥= relay1nt =bal short spades or 4hearts 5 diamonds2♣= relay2♦=4hearts 5 diamonds2♠=1453 shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 It has had some pretty mad auctions. It is possible not much work has been done on the strong club options because they are disallowed in the world computer championship. That makes a lot of sense, but is also why they should be allowed at the world computer championships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 .....................Q.....................A653.....................KQT94.....................854J743...................................86T98....................................J7285......................................7632A762..................................KJ93.....................AKT952.....................KQ4.....................AJ.....................QT Molybdenum Forcing Pass System:This could go two ways, depending on whether north decides to open 1♦ or pass. He'll probably pass, so then the following auction unfolds:N ---- SP --- 1♠ (Opening hand, any GF except for major suited slam tries)2♦ --- 2♠ (natural)2NT --- 3♠ (natural)3NT --- 4♦ (natural, cue bid)4♠ --- P If north opens 1♦... N ---- S1♦ --- 1NT (0-10 natural, 15+ OR pre-emptive raise forcing for 1 round and artificial)2♥ --- 2♠ (8-10, relay to 2NT)2NT --- 3♣ (relay, GF without support)3♦ --- 3♠ (relay, 6+ ♠)3NT --- P If this is recorded please include the first one, as I'm likely to pass instead of opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamHenry Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 If N opens:1♣-2♥ 10-15, no 5cM, not 4-4 majors OR 11-13 bal / weak takeout or slam try in ♠2♠-4♣ To play opposite weak hand / 4 or 6 CPs4♠ No slam interest If S opens:P-1♦ 16+, excluding GF1♠-2♥ 8+ (almost) any / Single-suited ♠ OR short ♥ OR both minors2♠-2N Relay / single-suited option3♦-3♠ Suit / no better bid4♠ To play So, in either case, we reach 4♠ by N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Upgraded Ultra Club Relay (C3) p p 1♣ p1♠ = 4+♥ or bal and 11+ hcp p 1NT = asking -2♣ = Artificial canape with longer minor - 2♦ = asking -2♠ = 5+♦ - 2NT = Relay - 3♦ = 1=4=5=3 -3♥ = Beta - 3NT = 3 Controls -4♥ All Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Upgraded Ultra Club Relay (C3) 2♠ = 5+♦ - 2NT = Relay - 3♦ = 1=4=5=3 -Again, have you changed the system here? Dan's site gives this 2♠ bid as showing exactly 5 diamonds (1453, 2452 or 3451). If you were to bid 3♠ instead of 3♥, would that be a stopper show (effectively asking for a club stop)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Again, have you changed the system here? Dan's site gives this 2♠ bid as showing exactly 5 diamonds (1453, 2452 or 3451). If you were to bid 3♠ instead of 3♥, would that be a stopper show (effectively asking for a club stop)?Another good question. Yes, the system was changed to C3 in 2009 so that responder could show 4♥ and 6+♣/♦ by bidding to 2NT (1-under) or 3♣. 3♠ is not defined in the system in this auction - this is a problem hand and opener has to take a position with responder possibly having a 5-4 hand with 5♥. The probability that hearts are 5-cds is 10-4 in this sequence. I considered the alternate auction: 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♠ = SAB - 2NT = 0-1♠ - ? is more of a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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